Third base, no holecard!

Does anyone know what the playing strategy is when the dealer does not take a holecard and you are playing at third base? (No need to stand whatever the count with 15 vs 10, since the only cards that can bust you�re hand (7 or higher) will go to the dealer if you do not take it, wich will result in a winning hand for him/her, etc.) Should I avoid this kind of action or is it in fact a good situation with the right strategy. And what about team-play, any strategies there?

Altso, I would like to know if this is a beatable game:

DEALER WINS TIES ON 17, 18, AND 19. Lose all to dealer blackjack. Double on 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. DAS, S17, six decks - 1 deck cut out,
over/under 13 and there is no heat (sit out hands at will). I use K-O and UBALO for over/under.

If someone could please analyze this game for me I would be very thankful.

Chappis.

Does anyone know what the playing strategy is when the dealer does not take a holecard and you are playing at third base? (No need to stand whatever the count with 15 vs 10, since the only cards that can bust you�re hand (7 or higher) will go to the dealer if you do not take it, wich will result in a winning hand for him/her, etc.) Should I avoid this kind of action or is it in fact a good situation with the right strategy. And what about team-play, any strategies there?

There are no changes to basic strategy in regards to hitting/standing when playing when no hole card. There are changes if the dealer wins both bids if you double or split and the dealer has a bj, i.e. don't double or split if the dealer shows a 10 or A.

You might want to check out the blackjack strategy generator. Press Links at left.

Altso, I would like to know if this is a beatable game:

DEALER WINS TIES ON 17, 18, AND 19. Lose all to dealer blackjack. Double on 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. DAS, S17, six decks - 1 deck cut out,
over/under 13 and there is no heat (sit out hands at will). I use K-O and UBALO for over/under.

You should be able to gain an advantage on the o/u bet. I suppose there is a count at which the bj games becomes positive, but I think you will be largely wasting your time playing this.

The O/U is the best option, by far. The regular game would have to have a monster count for you to have an advantage.

Can you bet more on the O/U bet than your BJ bet? If not, then you will want to alter your entry count for the O/U bet to properly consider the negative EV from the BJ bet.

I have played this rule set before in certain Scandanavian countries. You can get away with just making over/under bets, which is adviseable, since this is where all of the profit comes from. You can't beat the game as a practical matter
Before any of the big teams rush out there I think this game is mostly offered with a max bet equivalent to 10 or 20 dollars. Some places go up to 100 USD eqv, which is more interesting obviously, but they tend to be more fussy about selective wagering.

In Europe, there is a widespread illbelief that one should play different on third base than at any other place but the argument goes usually in favor of standing.
Lately an otherwise reliable BS-player at my local casino played at the last box for a change (usually he plays first base).At one point he got 12 versus 7 and he argued aloud: "I want the 9 but the 9 would harm the dealer, so I leave this card to him".To my great surprise the dealer got really a 9 and then busted and our fellow was very proud of his play, which was of course quite foolish because under normal circumstances, you cannot guess the next card.
I think the noholecard-rule is the main reason why there are so few BS-players in Europe.

Francis Salmon

John May-
"You can't beat the game as a practical matter"

Cellini�s continued embellishment �
But it�s more fun to beat Cellini like a punching bag by using undocumented and falsified information that's unproven and contain no merit whatsoever. For extra fun, make false allegations against anyone that believes in freedom of speech and choice while attempting to degrade them in front of their peers by pushing your unjustified beliefs and accusing them of being the one you seem to have an unexplainable grudge against because they were bold enough to speak their mind and defend Cellini.

This is almost as fun as pushing small crippled children out of their wheel chairs or watching a train wreck filled with your loved ones.

John, I defended you many times against a slew of people and posters on BJF-Online that discarded your information due to their dislike and narrow minded preconceived opinions about you. If I hurt you or offended you in any way please confront me and don�t accuse others of being me. You can cut into me all you want but don�t drag innocent people into your hatred for me especially since you have no reason for your accusations. Your past false allegations have discredited me even though Curtis attached a link from my rag to your book (which I recommend and admire) as a �Related Item.� I was able to prove your allegations to be false yet you continue to attack me or anyone that mentions my name.

If you have a score to settle with me please do so by clicking on the �Send E-Mail to this Poster� and meeting me face to face.

The friends we have in common will surprise you.

With all due respect,

-Cellini

I just didn't like what you did to promote your book here before. I actually thought your book was quite good, and your other writings useful. I hope you continue to contribute.

You did however, in the past, use multiple aliases to promote your book. So did Radar O'Reilly, using Snyder's identity. This was confirmed by bj21 management when I called you on it. So, forgive my suspicions.

In this case however, I was wrong, and have retracted my comments on GC. You must understand that a high standard of behaviour is expected of "credible" gaming authors if we are not all to be dumped in the same pond as Patrick, Davis etc.

When I asked about a strategy for third base/no holecard I ment a strategy when counting. With K-O you should either hit or stand with 15 vs 10, depending on the count. If it�s really so, that you should not change your strategy just because sitting at third, could someone PLEASE explain it to me mathematical, since to me it makes absolute no sense at all to stand.

As I wrote in my original question, the only cards that can hurt you is 7 or higher and if I dont take that card the dealer get it and still beats me. As I see it, one of the following things can happen:

The next card is high - I hit and bust, or stand and lose vs 17-20 (the ace niether help, nor hinder me, if I recive it)
or,
The next card is low - I hit and improve, or stand and let the dealer have a bad hand. But since I dont know if I pass up a 6 or a 10, I feel that there is no punishment for hiting. I either improve or bust, in wich case I would still lose since the dealer would reach a pat hand.

I hope someone could please help straighten out the questionmarks for me! (Swedish saying)

Have a nice day, all of you!

Chappis

For example, if the next two cards are 3 and 10, will you hit or stand? This is equivalent to the U.S. rule where the dealer has a 3 as hole card.

Any objections?

Dear TJ!

I see you�re point. But since I do not know the two (or three) next cards they could just as well be 6 and 10. Or 6, 5, 10.

Please comment!

Of course you don't know how the cards will come out. If the next card is 6, then standing is wrong. But again, you never know the card in advance.

Overall, when the count is high, with 15 vs 10, stand is better than hit. This is true whether the hole card rule is ENHC or U.S. rule. Following my last post you can know that the two situations are equivalent. (This can be viewed as mathematical proof.)

If you still don't understand, let me know.

"I just didn't like what you did to promote your book here before."

John, this explains a lot about your feeling of discontent towards me but, not that it makes any difference, I was vindicated and cleared of all those charges over a year ago. At that time there was 3 "DV Cellini's" registered on this site alone!
You were not privy to the fact that my password was given out to others (by a moderator that shall remain nameless) that claimed to be me. The same conspiracy was concocted against me on the RGE site but VN was able to put 2+2 together and realized that the IP�s did not jive.

"You did however, in the past, use multiple aliases to promote your book."

John, again I respect you for your concern in �weeding out� frauds. Though your intentions are pro bono, your conclusions are incorrect. I have never been a shameless promoter of my rag. I have never used more than one 'handle'. In fact I never mentioned my duct-taped rag in a positive manner and even tried to down play its worthiness in order to maintain a low profile.
I have asked/begged that the rag that bears my name be removed from print (ask AS or AC) but due to the costs incurred by their initial investment, they refused. After a few e mails they convinced me not to fight them and allow the �Rag� to fizzle out.

If you need more proof please click on the �Send E-Mail to this Poster� and I will be glad to elaborate. Or you can ask Mr. Rogers, Stanford, Arnold, or Viktor.

I have no ill feelings towards you but I feel you�ve been misinformed.

Best,

-Cellini

Your explanation sounds plausible. I am surprised bj21 management did not publicly disclose that information. Also, note that I did not draw any implications as to why this was going on, I simply stated that it was.

Either way I am a little tired of acting as policeman, which you may rightly say is not my job anyway. I will not get involved with this sort of thing again. Lets forget this.

Dear TJ!

I just finished a long letter to you (and everybody else of course) trying to explain how I�m thinking about this no holecard thing.

Since I�m not that good at english I thought that it would be a good idea to show how I reason by giving examples and explain my thoughts about them step by step. When I started using card sequences (high-low-high for example) then it suddenly struck me. I could see clear again. I moved from darkness to enlightment. I became a Buddha : ) I quickly deleted my whole letter and now I at least think I understand.

But, please tell me. Is�nt it true, that it is not the next card to be dealt that is important but rather the following cards.
Example: With a high count, the next three cards are more likely to contain two high and one low card, than the other way around. If the low card comes first and I hit, I still lose when the dealer reach 20 (unless the low card was exactly 5 or 6). If the low card is in the middle or last I bust with a 10. My thoughts are only valid with lots of low card (two low, one high) but then the correct strategy is to hit.

If this is the reason to stand, please say so, but if I should stand for another reason, tell me. I allready play correct, but I�m eager to know WHY I play the way I do!!!

Chappis,

I hope that you will understand completely after the following explanation.

Situation: ENHC, 15 vs 10, high count, player at 3rd base.

Case 1: If the next card is 10, no matter you hit or stand, you lose.
Case 2: If the next two cards are 6 and 10, no matter you hit or stand, you win.
Case 3: If the next two cards are 3 and 10, you win if stand, lose if hit.
Case 4: If the next three cards are 3, 6 and 10, you win if hit, lose if stand.

As you said, the result depends on not only the next card, but also the card(s) after it, i.e., the result depends on the sequence of the cards.

We don't care about Cases 1 and 2. At high count, Case 3 is more likely to occur than Case 4. Thus stand is the correct play.

As a homework, you can find out that for each of the 4 cases, there is an equivalent mapping between the ENHC and the U.S. hole card rule. This is why playing strategy is *NOT* affected by ENHC.

TJ

By the way, you did write one hell of a book and I would be honored if you would autograph a copy for me. I could send you my worn out copy but I would rather buy a new fresh copy. Is there any way we can make this happen? I know AC is out of town (talked to him last night)but the topic failed to get make it around this topic so I figured I would ask you out right.

Best,

-Cellini