team strategy

I am considering forming a team, but do not want to do so unless I have all my betting parameters and strategy down perfectly. What is the best way to go about this? Assume a $100,000 with four players, who will focus primarily on spotting standard strip shoe games, with alternating big players. Do most teams have the counters flat bet a minimal amount or spread less than optimum, or do the spotters count normally and spread at least 1-12 at this standard game? If the spotters flat bet $25, how can I figure out exactly how much the big player should bet upon being signalled into the shoe? Also, when is the ideal time to have him come in? Intuitively, it seems better to have the spotters count normally, in order to provide better returns. The only risk I can see is the added possibility of heat. But there will be heat eventually, either way, right? How much benefit would flat-betting spotters provide as opposed to traditionally counting spotters? These are just some introductory questions I have on team play, and I still have much to learn (and much teaching to do!) before we begin. Perhaps someone can help point me in the right direction. I have the basic concepts down, but am unsure of how to obtain the necessary technical precision regarding betting issues that are essential to maximizing success. Id prefer to play and learn from a more experienced team, as opposed to having to take charge just yet, but that seems to be my primary option right now. where to begin my preparation?

Please don�t take offense at what I am going to say. I don�t think you should plan to form your team. I don�t think your ready to invest serious money (you mentioned a 100K bankroll) playing high-stakes blackjack.

Playing high stakes BJ should only be done after you have a good knowledge of the game and a lot of experience. Leading a team requires even more experience, and an additional set of skills. Frankly, I have the capital that I could invest in other players, but I don�t feel that I have the knowledge or experience to successfully lead a team.

I come to the Free Board infrequently, and I don�t remember a lot of details about the posters. I may very well be mistaken about you. But is my impression that are still a beginning player, who needs to learn more and play more before taking this leap.

To get back to your specific question: There are different types using different types of tactics. However, no-one who is knowledgeable such tactics is going to describe them here. Why would you describe the tactics that are effective on a public board where they can be read by every pit boss and every surveillance person on the planet.

I do have a specific recommendation for you. Why don�t you join Green Chip. Now, I don�t think you will get an answer to this specific question there. And you will learn more about the game. But you will get to make contacts with other players. Some of these players may eventually feel comfortable answering your questions privately.

All I asked was how to find good information about team betting strategies. I don't see how providing info about optimum betting strategies could possibly help the 'enemy'. Im sure it wuold not be too difficult to work out all the numbers, perhaps through bj software, to aid in determining proper and efficient betting guidelines. There are books available that discuss team betting strategies. I disagree that such info must be kept so secret. I said in my post that I am hesitant about forming a team, and would prefer not to. I was simply asking for advice on learning how best to go about it. I am not a beginner, and am considering team play for the obvious advantages of joint bankrolls, more hands played, etc. that will help smooth out the vicious swings of standard dev., and assist in approaching the magical 'long run' much more quickly. If you have an honest group of near flawless counters who know well the ins and outs of the game, then what are the reasons against doing so? I know honesty/trust is usually a major one, but I am certain in my situation it would not be. Assuming I have a team of adept, skillful and experienced counters who will play completely disciplined according to the overarching strategy prepared beforehand, it seems the benefits would definitely outweigh the negatives. Counting solo is beginning to seem pointless to me as a serious hobby. It seems very unlikely in today's game that anyone could make serious money for any prolonged period of time by counting alone.

betting strategies all depend on your team play. And M.P. makes good points. And about finding any good info on modern team play.

Aces & Faces to Ya! K-O Joe

can make money playing solo anymore then you definitely need to learn more. While you are right that it is tough, but it is not a waste of time for many many greenchippers and higher!!!

table

I am a serious long time counter. I have played solo many years for small stakes on infrequent trips to LV and MS. I can tell you that it is some of the hardest money I ever made. But if you are not profitable as a solo player building a bankroll then, I worry about your long term success in a more complex team situation(which I cannot offer advice on). I can tell you are a serious player, but go a little slower and get some more experience, playing time, and bankroll. If you cannot make a satisfactory income on your own, you can't really be confident in your team endeavor.

I did not say I have not had success on my own. I am well ahead in my career, and am confident that if at some point in the future, I decided to get more serious, I could win substantial money on my own.

Tableburner- I agree you can win decent money playing solo. But nowhhere near as much as you could with a quality team.

I will never play solo professionally. In my opinion it is not worth it. Too lonely, too many fluctuations (team play will be the same, but hopefully greatly reduced), not enough earning potential, heat. On straight counting, I am confident that I can play as well as nearly anyone on this board. I cannot shuffle track, though. Im not sure what more I need to know before engaging in team play. I am already experienced in playing solo, and continuing on this route will not help much in preparing me for team play. My faith in this board wanes- no one has yet really responded to my basic ?'s.

I think you'll find what you're looking for on the Green Chip board. That's were I'd look if I was in your shoes. It should be worth the small investment, in more ways then one.

MC

Is green chip really so much better? What can players tell me on green chip that they cant tell me here? All I did was ask a simple ? about betting that i could answer myself w/o too much trouble. I figured the resident pros here could give me a decent answer easily enough, and don't see how this info is so classified. i doubt it would be of too much use to the casinos as well, as they already understand the basic premises behind team play. Instead all I get are lectures about how i should gain more experience and join green chip. Can anyone respond DIRECTLY to anything i have said with any elementary level of competence?

You asked a simple question which you can answer yourself without too much trouble. Then do the leg work and find your own answer. It's not much trouble, you said so yourself.

MC

really, for a few months at least. The archives alone are worth a bundle. You will find the answer to most of your questions there.

As for secret info revealed there, you will not find much of that as the casino people have access too.

Just give it a try and if you don't like it you can cancel. It will be a plus for you.

Regards
Iggy.

The advice you have received is not misguided. People just have a tendency to be wary of others asking team questions on a free public board. There is an assumption that if you are going to form a team you should probably have the answers to those questions or do whatever necessary to figure it out yourself. Having said that I'll give a feeble attempt.

"I am considering forming a team, but do not want to do so unless I have all my betting parameters and strategy down perfectly. What is the best way to go about this?"

Develop betting parameters for a minimal RoR, assuming your $100K BR is not readily replenishable. Assuming by strategy you mean play strategy, develop one that fits the style of the team based on their personalities. Building a BJ team is like building any team. It needs a strong leader who can identify strengths and weaknesses of the team members and capitalize on them. Read anything you can to identify others strategies, then develop your own style. Joining Green Chip may not be seen as necessary, but it is viewed as a first screening since someone is willing to invest $50/yr. in their BJ education. Other connections may or may not follow.

"Do most teams have the counters flat bet a minimal amount or spread less than optimum, or do the spotters count normally and spread at least 1-12 at this standard game?"

It stands to reason if the spotters are counting and spreading normally then they're not spotters, their counters/bettors. Depending on your betting level, you may draw heat on your "spotters" before your bigplayer ever gets a chance to place a bet.

"If the spotters flat bet $25, how can I figure out exactly how much the big player should bet upon being signalled into the shoe?"

You'll have to talk to others more math proficient than me to figure it out exactly. But if you determine the average amount of time your spotters are playing it may help you factor that into your EV and betting strategy.

"Also, when is the ideal time to have him come in?"

That depends on your style, betting level and what your trying to accomplish. Some come in at +1,+2, or +3 depending how much they want to maximize their EV. Of course the higher the number, the less frequently it will occur.

"But there will be heat eventually, either way, right?"

Right. Others have told me, and I believe rightfully so, if your not getting heat then your not playing a game that is a threat to the Casinos. Heat is a part of investing in BJ.

"How much benefit would flat-betting spotters provide as opposed to traditionally counting spotters?"

I think I answered this in the statements above.

"I have the basic concepts down, but am unsure of how to obtain the necessary technical precision regarding betting issues that are essential to maximizing success. Id prefer to play and learn from a more experienced team, as opposed to having to take charge just yet, but that seems to be my primary option right now. where to begin my preparation?"

I think this is the statement that got everyone responding the way they did. I believe their advice is sound. Join GC and establish yourself as a consistent, intelligent poster that is serious about BJ and doesn't get involved in idle batter. You won't make the contacts you seek on these pages. Don't ask why, it's just a fact of life.

Hopefully these are the "direct answers with an elementary level of competence" you are looking for.

Positive SD to you,

ODAAT

I find the difference between this board and GC is the Wisdom that comes from the extended discussions by people who have been in the business a LONG time. Too often newbies, or isolated solo players focus too much on the numbers, rules, mechanics, etc. that lead us to believe that being good at this game is a matter of keeping a count, eyeing a discard tray, and managing your bankroll and unit size. While those are necessary skills, they only form the basics to being successful. There's a lot more to successfully managing your game (time, psychology, longevity, relationship w/pit, etc.) that comes from plain old experience then from grinding the numbers.

This board is good. GC takes it to another level. My solo game has improved leaps and bounds since joiniing GC.

And I got a snide response.

MC

Is green chip really so much better? What can players tell me on green chip that they cant tell me here?

What more can they tell you? Nothing. It's that they may be more willing to answer your questions on Green Chip.

All I did was ask a simple ? about betting that i could answer myself w/o too much trouble.

If you want to go that route, chapter 7 of Blackjack Attack has some good info on team play.

Instead all I get are lectures about how i should gain more experience and join green chip.

I understand your hesitation to join Green Chip. I'm hesitant to pay for any message board on the internet myself. I ultimately decided that at the price of $12.50 per quarter GC was worth the risk. That's two and a half units at my level of play. After a few weeks I think it's a worthwhile investment of my time and money.

Will you get a direct answer to this exact question on GC? Quite possibly not, especially as a new person. But there's a lot of wisdom floating around in the air over there and you can't help but absorb some of it.

Good luck with your team endeavors and I'm sorry I couldn't help more. I still have a lot to learn myself.

Car Geek

Didn't mean to come off snide. I apologize. I do appreciate the advice.

I did what you want to do at early 2001, with 3 counters, one big player, and $100,000. We won $66,000 on first month with 8 hours a day, and 6 days a week. The effect playing time were about 6 hours a day deducting meals and travellings. I can't tell you the difference between then and now on heat level. My big player jumped in with $1,000 and increased to $3,000 with no problem then. My counters flatted bet and all win/loss went to team bank. Big players knew only BS and received $10 an hour. Counters received 25% of the net win. The first month went well but I felt uncomfortable of allowing counters' win/loss into team bank so I changed, giving counters $10 an hour but asked them to absorb the betting win/loss. The two counters became wongers and we were caught by Griffin circulating flyer of us three. Have I answered most of your questions?

Being caught by Griffin as a counting team. Are you now unable to find casinos who let you play solo? I assume from your name, you do a lot of international play also. What I'm getting at is are you now no longer able to play BJ state side after being poped by Griffin?

MC

Not only did you exemplify his program exactly, you gave us the two biggest roadblocks found on that path. Detection leading to being fliered of Griffined is of course important, but the inability to control players strategies is most telling. Not only do you have to have people you can trust, you have to have a solid plan you can stick to.

I assume this was done somewhere outside the US since it is so difficult now to find any casino that will take big bets for days on end.