Still a bit confused?

So am I right that SOME casinos will revert back to the typical late surrender rules so (I could surrender against an say A up if I think a 9 is in the hole?) while others don't let surrender after he checks with a ace or what about another card?

I am seeing several casinos listed around the world with this E10...and before I travel to Egypt, Moscow or even Puerto Rico I need to be sure what this means....Thanx again for bearing with my stupidity.

Based on what Don and Rick are saying, here is the most common meaning of ES10:

Dealer's upcard is an ace: you can't surrender at all.

Dealer's upcard is a 10: you can early surrender (that is, you can surrender whether the dealer has a 10-up natural or not. You should act quickly, however, since if the dealer does have a natural, he or she may turn it up before you've made your surrender decision. This is an important point, given that most players never surrender and dealers are unaccustomed to waiting for this decision).

Dealer's upcard is anything else: you can surrender.

So, in other words, you can surrender all you want against non-aces (on your original two cards, of course); you can't surrender at all against an ace.

I've only encountered this rule once, about fifteen years ago in a small U.S. casino, and it differed from the above in that late surrender against an ace was also permitted. However, I would defer to Don's and Rick's experiences, as they are more recent and likely more relevant to the areas you intend to play.

And there's nothing "stupid" about finding out the precise details about the rules before you play; it's much smarter than waiting until you have a big bet out and get a rude awakening :-)

So I would assume this is a good rule for expectation? How does the game relate to LS when you CAN surrender against an ACE if it is NOT permitted even after dealer checks? (Assuming all other rules and factors are identical)

SO I am assuming. And again it sounds like more than likely I CAN't surrender against an Ace EVER altho I would have to double check when I sit down?

According to Wong's Basic Blackjack:

Late surrender is worth .1% (this is for basic strategy players; the value of surrender is greater for card counters, as pointed out by Don and others).

Early surrender against 10 only is worth .3% (this too is for basic strategy and is higher if you count).

In a nutshell, ES10 with no surrender at all against a dealer ace is roughly three times more valuable than LS.

What if it is ES10 plus EH european hole card.....Many years ago I was in Belguim and got burnt royally on a big bet I believe it was involving this rule??? I don't remember at all what happened...I think it had something to do with me doubling ??? How would that effect the ES10. Thanks again!!! I am trying to plan a trip somewhere else soon...since I have about given up on Vegas.

Thanks DAVE thats EXACTLY what I needed to know about expectation. And this EH rule how does that effect the surrender and also in general?

EH costs about .1%, assuming you make appropriate changes to your strategy.* If you're still allowed to early surrender against 10, EH does not affect the worth of this rule. Hands which you would double or split against a 10 wouldn't be surrendered anyway.

*with EH, do not double down against 10 or ace. Do not split against ace. Other than aces, do not split against 10.

So the No doubling or splitting against a ten or Ace,,,NO Matter what the count is??? I can't remember what happened years ago in Belgium...but it sounds like I doubled or split a BIG bet and got burned big time?? I know I was pissed. Does that what it sounds like to you?

Now EH the definition? ...I am assuming no hole card or checking til your done playing??? Is that the correct interpretation? AND if that is true...how does a casino combine that rule with ES10 ...I see that it is done I think at some casinos.However They don't "seem"compatible ? Unless I'm wrong wwith my interpretation of the rule?

> If you're still allowed to early surrender against 10, EH does not
> affect the worth of this rule. Hands which you would double or split
> against a 10 wouldn't be surrendered anyway.

I gave this some more thought, and the above statement isn't quite right. With ES10 and EH, you WOULD surrender 8-8 v. 10 (you wouldn't split here, so all 16s are the same), so the value of ES10 is slightly greater with EH than without EH.

Another way to think about it: surrender allows you to escape bad situations. 8-8v10 is even worse in EH than it is in other games, since you won't split, so escaping this hand is more of a savings than in a non-EH game.

ES10 and EH are not incompatible. If you early surrender against a 10 with these rules, you give up half your bet. If the dealer later goes on to get a natural, you've still just given up half your bet. This is exactly what would happen if the dealer checked for a natural earlier, assuming you surrendered quickly enough that the dealer didn't flip over his or her natural before you made your decision.

To answer your other question regarding EH: never double against 10 or ace, never split against ace, and split aces only against 10. Practically speaking, the above is true whether you're counting cards or not.

Though there are indexes for doubling 11 v. 10 and splitting aces v. ace, they are all double-digit values, sometimes as high as +24(!). All of this information is from Wong's Professional Blackjack.

"I gave this some more thought, and the above statement isn't quite right. With ES10 and EH, you WOULD surrender 8-8 v. 10 (you wouldn't split here, so all 16s are the same), so the value of ES10 is slightly greater with EH than without EH."

The bottom line, end-result of what you're saying is correct (although the effect is minuscule), but I think I would say that the value of ES10 isn't being changed in any manner, by the presence of ENHC; rather, the penalty for ENHC isn't quite as great as it usually is (0.11%) when combined with ES10, because one of the plays we're forced to forfeit because of ENHC (splitting 8,8 v. T) is no longer a factor.

Just words.

Don

My choice of phrasing was in response to the original question: "How would that effect [sic] the ES10?"

But quite right...just words. Increasing the value of ES10 is the same as reducing the penalty for ENHC.

David

When the surrender rule is offered in a game without hole card, it's always EARLY surrender and usually you can wait until it's your turn to announce your decision because the dealer will pull his second card only when all the players have completed their hands. Since with most rule sets ES would give the BS-player an advantage off the top, surrender comes rarely unrestricted.Most casinos don't allow surrender against an ace which alone accounts for almost 0.40% reduction in the off-the-top-edge.In this case the rule is called ES10, not because you wouldn't be allowed to surrender against other cards, but because the ten accounts for practically all advisable surrender situations.Apart from that the BS-player should only surrender 16v9.With ES10 the advantage shifts by 0.25% which makes most games playable.
Even in Europe unrestricted ES is still rare and you're more likely to find it �n CSM games where the Casino bosses feel safe from card counters.

Francis Salmon

You guys were great. Its sooo hard to find a decent game nowadays...Were down to having to scratch for every last .1 % I needed to know this clearly.