Skilled Player Abuse by Casinos

As per Chappy's request, I am posting this at the top of the heap so maybe more people will see it!! Thanks for the invitation Chappy! I guess I made my point. If anyone reading this would like to read more of my 15 years playing in the "Heat of the battle" and getting away with it, or have specific questions, just ask!!

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Ok, first off, unless you have LOTS of money, forget about suing the casinos. Ain't gonna happen!! I've been there and done that. The only reason I did it and got paid off was that I carried a hidden tape recorder and recorded all their illegal B.S.

If they want to "back room" you, you WILL go with them or else. I had the bruises to prove it. I was taken forcefully off a chair, dragged across the casino floor, taken behind closed doors, thrown into a freight elevator and put into lockup. I was searched by them and the State Police, and none of them found the recorder. I wasn't after the cops, just the scumbag casino employee's.

Unfortunately for them, their incident reports didn't jive with the audio tapes. They can make a video look like anything they want, and if they can't, it will never be found.

I beat them because they run their mouths and didn't have a clue I was recording them. Ha ha ha on them. But nonetheless, they WILL abuse you and you will have a difficult time proving you were innocent without audio. If you do get arrested, keep your hands at your sides and don't make sudden movements or wave your arms around as all a Jury will see and hear is a video tape WITH NO SOUND!!

With all my years experience in the casinos, the best thing to do is if you're getting heat or any attention, leave immediately and stay out for a while until they forget about you. If you raise a fuss, that will just make them remember you even more. If you are spotted by the pit, get the hell out as they will point you out to everyone and you will never get to play there again.

I could go on and on, and maybe I will share some more of my experience on dealing with the casinos in the future, but just remember one thing; the States are NOT going to let their cash cow get gored. If it comes down to letting a card counter have free will at the tables or protecting their tax base, well, you know the answer already. Don't pull a Doug Grant and waste your money on attorneys, just hit and run and keep moving!!

One more point I learned the hard way, don't let it get to the point where you are asked to "leave" or "come with us". Keep your eyes and ears open. If you see you're getting undue attention, leave and come back another day. Don't make an impression on them so they don't forget you. I know we shouldn't have to put up with being harrassed, but if you want to continue to play and make money, keep a low profile. If a war is what you want, then you've found the enemy and they is you!

Good luck!

PS. Just so you don't think the same about everyone, I WAS a Sigma (Doug Grant) Team player and was one of the top money winners. It was a shame we had so many thieves and fools aboard, as they didn't realize what a money machine we had. I am VERY sad about the demise of the team and had a lot of friends that I will always remember.

I agree that these troubles and others occur with very high stakes play. While one is not always so severely treated, it does happen. Earlier this year three security guards at Mnadalay Bay tried to claim that the player (135 pounds) attacked all of these overgrown morons.

What you said is correct and I was glad to read it. Your best advice is "don't let it get to the point where you are asked to "leave" or "come with us". After that point all kinds of difficulties begin. There are some differences between what happens from one state to another, but caution for your own safety and money needs to be on your mind at all times. Too bad so many on this page with little experience spout their naive hypotheses or what "the law" says.

The escalation in troubles for the player will continue until the players fight back. Ther only way to do this is to band together into a unified group to continually inform the public of the casino's duplicity in dealing with winning players. Unless we act, nothing will happen. A whiner's page gets us nowhere. Imagine a billboard on the strip or website info or passing out flyers. Embarrassing them is the only way. Do nothing and everything will continue to get worse. As it is today black chip action and above is quite an experience. Even my wife (in her 60s) is treated very crudely and like a criminal by these scumbags.

I for one appreciate this information and the professional manner in which it was presented. Bonne Chance.

In all the times I have been harassed, not one person offered to help or be a witness to me after I started getting heat. Once you start having problems, no one wants to be associated with you, so I would always try to talk with other people at the table BEFORE I had problems, and try to find out their first name and maybe where they were from in some friendly conversation. Make friends with them, let them see that you're just an average person trying to win. Then when the heat starts, and sometimes when I know it will happen ahead of time, I will let little things out to them to forewarn them that I will be subjected to discrimination, they will buddy up with you.

I keep little cards with my name and phone number on them and give them to people at the table whom I befriend. Then when I am asked to leave, or am dragged off, I make sure to ask them to call me sometime the next day. When they do call, I can use caller ID or even a little friendly talk, I can get enough information out of them to use for a subpoena if they won't voluntarily be a witness for me.

What we need is a National Skilled Player Abuse Hotline. With word of mouth and a little advertising, we could inform people that the shuffle they experienced at a table where a skilled player was shuffled on, cheated them out of a possible good shoe. How about something like "1-800-SHUFFLE"?

Keep a handfull of cards in your pocket with this info on it and when you get shuffled on, hand them out. I am notorious for filling in the gaps when people ask "why did they shuffle before the cut card came out". The casino's canned response is: "We have the right to shuffle at will". Yeah, you sure do, ESPECIALLY when the shoe is in the favour of the players, right Mr. Pit Boss?? Once I spit this comment out, most people will ask what I meant, and from there it's all down hill for the casino. I always recommend that they pick up their chips, go file a complaint for being cheated, cash out and LEAVE!!

I love it when a high roller or "Whale" gets up and leaves. I always ask them, was it worth losing a guy like that, just to try and stop me??

Once, I was shadowing tables and slipped into a $25 game and somehow they saw me and shuffled up. Well, I was pissed! I pulled out a $500 chip and went directly to the next table and put it in an open spot while the hand was still in play. The guy came right over and told the dealer to shuffle up at the end of the hand. Hmmm, this guy is an idiot!! I waited for the dealer to shuffle and went to the next table and did the same thing, and again, he came running over and said to shuffle. Well, I did this for 10 tables in less than 5 minutes and when I finished, I stood at the end of the pit and watched 10 tables all shuffling at the same time. WOW what a feeling of power!

So I'm standing there and the guy comes over to me and says "you might as well leave! You're not going to get any games here"! I was amazed! Damm, why didn't I have my recorder that day. Anyway, I turned to him and said, "You know, I've been told I'm a pretty damm good counter, but I don't know ANYONE who can count 10 tables at once". The look on this guy's face would have knocked down the building! I knew what was running through his mind, but he was so intent on stopping me, he didn't even think about what he was doing. Talk about blind hatred.

This is what gave me the idea to make them shuffle up negative shoes. Once they pick up on you, they will trample over each other to shuffle. Once I have been made, I run them around for an hour or so, making them shuffle up negative shoes and all they do is end up reducing their bad shoes and pissing off their regular players. Lot's of fun. try it some time, It's great strees relief!! But this will only work in a place where they can't bar you.

Anyway, this got to be too long, but I enjoy taking a trip down memory lane. I had a lot of fun in the past 15 years and it's only getting better!!

I won't tell you "good luck", because if you're doing it right, "There's NO luck invloved". If you're not, then luck won't help you either!

Have a nice day, I'm heading for the casino!!! :)

I think an 800 number or a website connection wth full explanation of the sham that takes place is a great idea. Let it get to the point where half the questions asked of pit scum are about "will you throw me out if I win". We must pursue this collectively. Those guys on the strip pass out thousands of flyers for strippers, we can have them pass out ours. We can provide ratings and details of each casino on a website and finally do something all the whiners here refuse to do--TAKE ACTION! The games can't get any worse. If next year the casinos go from 6/5 games to 5/6 games, the public would barely react and have no clue unless we explain it.

You said , ""Well, I did this for 10 tables in less than 5 minutes and when I finished, I stood at the end of the pit and watched 10 tables all shuffling at the same time. WOW what a feeling of power!""

Resorts in N.J.

Why hasn't someone set up the casinos with a couple hidden cameras yet? Have an AP at a table with a "wire" and another that is just playing with no apparent connection. Have a few cameras at different angles to catch the action as it unfolds. I don't know the legality of this though in Nevada or New Jersey. Is is legal to take images and audio on casino property in these states? The audio of any other player not involve would need to be removed, but the players that are involved would obviously stay on the tapes.

I used to do some private investigations and we used video and audio to our advantage. I even used audio on an old employer, but I'm in Arizona and the laws are rather liberal on audio recording here. Any thoughts?

AKA aphorism or motto:

"NO GOVERNMENT, GROUP OR INDIVIDUAL HAS A RIGHT TO IMPOSE A BAN ON ANY PERSON BECAUSE OF THE RESULTS OF THEIR INTELLECTUAL ABILITIES.

So what do ya think my friends?

Also, liked the hotline idea.

Stealth Bomber

I like it.

I like it. It has a sort of "We the people..." feel to it.

SB,

The aphorism you proposed is as follows:
"NO GOVERNMENT, GROUP OR INDIVIDUAL HAS A RIGHT TO IMPOSE A BAN ON ANY PERSON BECAUSE OF THE RESULTS OF THEIR INTELLECTUAL ABILITIES."

The problem here is that the pronoun THEIR refers to the antecedent PERSON, but while THEIR is plural, PERSON is singular. Two possible corrections are these:

"NO GOVERNMENT, GROUP OR INDIVIDUAL HAS A RIGHT TO IMPOSE A BAN ON ANY PERSON BECAUSE OF THE RESULTS OF HIS INTELLECTUAL ABILITIES."

"NO GOVERNMENT, GROUP OR INDIVIDUAL HAS A RIGHT TO IMPOSE A BAN ON ANY PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THE RESULTS OF THEIR INTELLECTUAL ABILITIES."

Of these options, my preference is the first, because that is how I learned the English language.

Dog Hand

P.S. Please do not succumb to the P.C. version with HIS OR HER!

Thanks for your input. I think I like your second option best but maybe switch "people" to "person".

I have a friend that is a vocabulary genius. I'll have him work on it a then post his version/s with maybe 3 or 4 options.

So, what are we going to do with our "AP-horism" once we get it properly worded? It may begin some legal connotations (intelligence discrimination) which may become helpful to our community in the future.

Stealth Bomber

PS Dog Hand, tell me how to create italicized words in a post.??? I can't get my damned p c (not pit critter) to do it.

Italicized words in a post are created by using this < symbol followed by the letter i and the other > symbol at the beginning of the words then at the end of the words put a < symbol with a / symbol and another letter i followed by the other > symbol.
this is done without all the spaces & words describing the process.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, just me.

Only prob now is how to make the rest of the text go with regular font. ???

S B