Shuffle tracking?

Is shuffle-tracking for real? this sounds like some used-car salesman idea. how useful is it? do you counters who shuffle-track ever throw out max-bets on the first hand? i'm not sure how this works. i read the summaries on shuffle-tracking books on this web-site, but it's not clear what the advantage is and how you learn to shuffle-track.

PS the other night, i saw the first card (again) after the shuffle. as the dealer lifts the decks off the table, sometimes i can see the corner of the top card (which does not get burned). i placed a huge bet on box one and caught the ten. unfortunately, the dealer also got a ten and my second card was a 5. i lost 4 times my max bet.

Shuffle-tracking is for real. As you count the cards through a shoe, you will run into groups of good cards (10's and aces) and groups of bad cards. If you note where the good cards are placed in the discard tray, you can follow them through the shuffle, adjust the TC accordingly for that group and, if you can get the cut card, place the good cards right in the front. In such a case, you would indeed make your big bet right off the top. The great thing about shuffle tracking is that it is harder to detect by the casinos, since you will be raising your bets based on your knowledge of where the good cards lie. That will not necessarily correspond with a high count.

Not all shuffles are trackable though, so it is not a strategy that you can use in every casino in which you might play. It is also not to be confused with "clumping," which is just so much snake oil.

there are opportunities and, yes, I placed lots big bets on first hand. I play at a casino with trackable shuffle now with good results. I have played perhaps 5, 6 casinos for the past 12 months at 4 countries. Shuffle tracking is especially important when you play at small casinos outside the States, not much St opportunities in the States... unfortunately). St is the only way you can win more from these small joints with the wide spread knowledge of card counting but not so widely known ST. I bought BJ Forum's 3 serieres on ST and found them to be quite useful. I bought others regrettably. Good Luck.

You won't find many people that talk about it. It's sort of a secret society that don't want to kill the golden goose.

That's why you won't see deep discussions about it here.

i play at a 5-deck shoe game. should i do the following to practice: get five decks, divide the first half into a +5 count and the second half to a -5 count and then simulated the shuffle as the casino does it.

then i cut the card where i want and make big bets on the first several rounds. does that sound right?

it still seems sketchy to me. i'd be nervous making big bets like that. but if this is for real, it seems like great cover. casinos would simply think i'm just a hunch player or a guy who spreads at will.

the cheeze

Most people aren't willing to discuss shuffle tracking, especially on free forums. STracker mentioned BJ Forum's 3 part Shuffle Tracking Series. In this series, Snyder discusses how to practice and map shuffles. This is probably your best starting place.

Good luck,
MF

I bought BJ Forum's 3 serieres on ST and found them to be quite useful. I bought others regrettably. Good Luck

I recommend everyone obtain all the information they can on a subject before purchasing, but I think it would be better to start with some of the excellent resources online. Dennis Suggs "Shuffle-tracking 101" is about the only introduction which will make any sense to a neophyte available, and is available free on my homepage. Michael Hall's "Shuffle-tracking treatise" is the most advanced writing on the subject available (the only article which suggests accurate actual figures for gain from ST), and is also available online (link anyone?).
The Snyder series is basically solid but has some weird ideas about Kelly betting and TC conversion, and the treatment of sequencing is superficial to say the least.

Finally I think you are confusing "clumping" with shuffle-tracking, toecheese. This is not surprising since both concepts were invented by the same guy, one Jerry Patterson. Clumping is bogus superstitious silliness you should avoid, shuffle-tracking is, at least in your country, the most powerful advantage play weapon in the arsenal.

"Is shuffle-tracking for real?"
-Yup. It is the only way I will play a shoe game anymore. If it isn't a viable advantage play technique, then why do you think the casinos get into all those complicated shuffles? Face it, if they could take less time shuffling and resume play quicker, they would do a quick simple single pass and make more money wouldn't they?
"This sounds like some used-car salesman idea."
-Nope. I am real passionate about tracking. You know how a lot of guys sit and practice counting while watching TV or something? I sit and run through shuffles, and practice tracking. I also like mapping shuffles a lot too. To me its like working on puzzles.
I think some people have an aptitude for it and some people don't. I has nothing to do with intellect or education, IMHO. Hell, I am probably one of the worst people on this page at math. (Due to a substandard elementary school education while living in a poor rural area at a young age.)
Admittedly, tracking isn't the easiest thing in the world to start doing at first, but then remember how keeping the count, calculating TC and sizing bets seemed to be at first? But you got a handle on doing that that didn't you? -Kinda the same thing. Learn to do it in small steps and do as much of it as possible at home first!
You do need to be already accurately at counting, though. Its NOT something for a new counter, IMHO.
"How useful is it?"
-Invaluable!
Consider this: As a card counter, you raise your bets based upon the idea that a disproportionate number of high cards are supposed to be coming out soon, right?
But any experienced counter can tell you of times when, even though the count was already high and he put his big bet(s) out, the small cards justs kept coming and the count went even higher. Kinda tough to expect a positive outcome when that happens, huh?
But lets say that instead, you'd accurately tracked the shuffle. You knew that even though maybe the True Count was high enough right then to warrant a big bet, a slug of those those big cards were a deck and a half away from coming out of the shoe. What would you do? Take your chance with the high count and put out that big bet or wait for that slug, where you KNEW those big cards were coming out? A tracker would wait.
"Do you counters who shuffle-track ever throw out max-bets on the first hand?
@^)
Dude, one of the many nice things about tracking is that it also really helps for cover. Yes, you put out a big bet one the first hand IF someone has cut a rich slug to the front!
But what is really great is when there is another counter at the table (I know, I know!) and he ISN'T tracking and the TC is like -2 or something and a rich slug is about to come out and you go to 2 hands of 5 units. I've had some counts kinda smile to themselves, as if to say "Another sap, who's gonna geet fleeced." Then here come the aces and faces. I don't wish the other counters ill will, though.
Also, you have to look at it from the pit's point of view. If you were a PB, whom are you going to watch more closely? :
1) The guy who's bets rise and fall with the count and who goes to the bathroom everytime the count get real low, or
2) The guy who often bets big off the top, and who's bets are either seldom in correlation with a high count or are actially during a minus count.
@^D
"I'm not sure how this works."
-I am NOT a shill! But I would recommend BlackBelt In Blackjack, if you think you might be interested.
For me, unlike regular counting is NOT a mathematics thing (not much, anyway) Tracking is sort of a "shade tree mechanics" thing.
"It's not clear what the advantage is...."
-That's actually the toughest part of tracking, IMHO. The Bishop talks about that and I agree with him that the lack of clear cut numerical advantage indicators in tracking drives some people nuts, especially people who are heavily into mathematics. I can understand it, if math is their background, because tracking IS a bit of a "feel" thing. You can't mathematically prove it on paper, the way you can with porportionate betting or something.
Again, its seat-of-the-pants mechanics, not mathematics.

Try Arnold's book, do the exercises he recommends and see if you have an apptitude for it.
Let us know whay happens too.
Take care,
@^)
Cyclops

So these folks claim to be able to follow some high cards through the deck while they're playing their hands, and through a shuffle that will destroy these slugs? Maybe in some fantasy-land casino or someone's kitchen table, but not in the real world. Notice the ones who are claiming this are also shilling for some blackjack "shuffle-track" author. Watch now as these shills reply to this post with their denials. Funny how they can call this voodoo crap a "winning system" and trash a Jerry Patterson for spewing some similar garbage... voodoo is voodoo no matter how you package it.

Michael Hall's paper on tracking can be found at this site.

www.bjmath.com > table of contents > Playing Strategies > Shuffle Tracking.

AB

"Shills" get paid for their services. Online references above are free of charge, and those who share these links with readers of these posts don't get paid to do it, at least not for the free web info.

AB

That paper has been round the moon and back, I never know where it is.

for you, Don, as you limit yourself to a very powerful tool. I played full time for 9 years, only used st for the past 2 years. I have written 3 books (not for Synder, and I am not promoting here) then I started tracking. Tracking make playing BJ much, much funnier. I have been banned, I don't know, perehaps 70 times and have to limit my playing in many places, with tracking I can play as many hours as I like and enjoy the game more as I now create betting opportunities. Many people say counting is a dying business but it is not for trackers who use tracking to disguise while getting more betting opportunities. Tracking is not easy and is useless if you can not find those casinos, but you will definately not finding them if you are not looking. I track with a partner which make tracking and counting at the same time not too exhaustive. I don't want to defend myself of promoting Snyder's st series, I did not even get discount when buying them, but I do like to defend st as a powerful tool. I hope you are not feel affended as I did, please do ignore st as you like, we trackers like to be left alone too.

"If I can't do it, then it can't be done!" Is that basically it, Don?

If you feel you have to tell yourself that, then you're certainly within your rights, but you're still totally WRONG about tracking.

I'm no rocket scientist, but tracking not only works for me, it also works well for a number of other trackers I know and correspond with. I guess were all just totally delusional, huh, Don?
Nobody ever said every shuffle was trackable, though in my earlier post I DID say it is not easy to learn and that some folks are better at it than others. Hell, I know guys that are a LOT better (and smarter) "regular counters" than I am, but they can't track.

Me, A Shill? Now you're delusional. I've never even met The Bishop, but if I did, I'd shake his hand and say "God Bless your Momma & Daddy!" Why? Because tracking (which he was a pioneer of) has been very profitable for me, and it has also afforded me a great deal of cover. It has undoubtedly helped a lot in my play at local casinos, where its easier to get spotted as a counter, if you play frequently.

The poster that said most trackers don't post much about it is right. If we posted all the info, it would be totally worthless as the casinos read this stuff too.

My personal opinion is that if someone has some natural ability in the tracking area, once he reads a little about it, he or she will be able to take the ball and run with it mostly on their own, given some initiative.
An example : When BB in BJ came out, (if I am remembering correctly) the Bishop said that when a casino plugs the discards, everything but the tops and bottom are contaminated. I'll bet that he'd say differently now, because tracking has evolved a lot since he wrote that. Nowadays, A good tracker often CAN track against a house that plugs the discards, depending on the size of the plugs and where the dealers put them. I know, because I have, and others have too. BUT you have to "shop around" for the right dealers, just like non-tracking counters often shop around for good penetration.

I sincerely hope you can at least calm down and look at it with an open mind, DT. If not, you might be missin out on something good you may be quite capable of doing to augment your counting.

Take care,
@^)
Cyclops

you came across this (my first tracking):
I played at the Oriental Casino at Cheju Islanf, S. Korea. I was alone, after about 500 hours, 20 times play at this casino, I was closely watched by the casino manager. I did not know how to hide my counting... then I noticed one of the two delaers that took term dealt to me did not shuffle the discarded cards with other cards! For example, when finished the shoe, I had a plus 5 rc (I used Hi-Opt I then), with the 1 deck left on 4D shoe, it was tc plus 5. I could cut the tc 5 deck to the beginning of shoe and played big! If I had a minus 5, I could cut them out and started at tc 1.7 etc. I played 3 hands from $70 a hand to 3 hands of $400 each all night... I won $52,000 that night and was banned next day, not for counting or tracking but for winning... It was many many years ago and I believed the shuffle there had been altered. My second tracking was 6 years later, and then I tracked, tracked, and tracked. I wrote this for your reference, ask yourself honestly, if you came across such situation, and you noticed the shuffling, would you track? I bought Snyder's st series long after my first tracking and only when I came across another, very simple shuffling and I want to max the profitability potential. I hope the above true story will clarify st for you and others. You don't have to feel superior or inferior to st, just open your mind, you and many will find another (better) world of BJ.

Casinos are aware of shuffle tracking, and they take countermeasures before you start playing. What I'd like to know is how a shufflemaster works.