REALLY good players don't get barred (nt)
Some casinos bar anyone who wins big.
Every single full time pro that I know (and I know several) has been backed off and/or barred many times.
If you don't get an occasional back-off, you're probably not playing a winning game.
A "really good" red chip bettor might be able to avoid ever getting barred. That's about it.
Dedicated players and professional players alike have been identified and excluded from the tables once in a while. Pros like Don Schlesinger, Ian Andersen, and the late Ken Uston have written about their experience on being barred in their books. It is a sign that these gentlemen have beaten the game significantly.
Cyrus hasn't been barred.
Parker,
I agree with you that JJ's statement is wrong. (Possible just a troll to stir folks up?)
His statement is just too sweeping and broad.
But with all due respect to you, I feel that your statement: "If you don't get an occasional back-off, you're probably not playing a winning game," is as well.
Agreed, Higher stakes players get more scrutiny, but I am certainly no high stakes player, (low green) and have never been pulled up. For a long time I was a wonger, (please, no lectures) which may have helped. Then I got into tracking, and I believe it has also helped as well.
When I used to Wong, I once had a PB in a major LV casino follow me all around the casino until I left, but that's it.
Of course I've gotten lots of dirt looks and the stare down many times, but I always took the hint and quickly moved on. But that's it.
I'll now probably get a bunch of replies saying that I'm either lying or not really playing a winning game, but neither is the case.
I've enjoyed many of your posts and helpful info in the past.
No offense meant to anyone.
Take care,
@^)
Cyclops
No offense taken. I certainly don't expect everyone to always agree with me.
However, I believe that in this case I am correct, and you have supplied the evidence yourself.
You wrote:
"Of course I've gotten lots of dirt looks and the stare down many times, but I always took the hint and quickly moved on."
In other words, you have been, in effect, backing yourself off.
However, I would certainly agree that the combination of shuffle tracking and relatively low stakes play is extremely effective in "throwing the hounds off the scent."
When I get up and walk of my own accord, that's NOT the same as being barred, because I am free to play there again on another shift/day/trip.
In the case of someone actually being barred, they cannot do so without risking arrest. (I realize that some do, anyway.)
In my opinion, there's a huge difference between the two.
I always try to keep in mind Don's S.'s philosophy that the goal is to extract as much profit as possible and still be welcome back next time. (Not an exact quote!)
I do try to do that in Vegas at least somewhat, but consider it absolutely essential at my local casinos.
Take care,
@^)
Cyclops
for the exact quote. You're certainly close enough! :-)
Don
"I always try to keep in mind Don's S.'s philosophy that the goal is to extract as much profit as possible and still be welcome back next time. (Not an exact quote!)"
since i am green chip and have only been backed off once and never barred (although heat on occasion). If you take proper precautions at my level you can usually evade barrings. My level is a min of anywhere between 5 and 100 and a max of anywhere between 2 x 100 and 2 x $500 depending on the joint). But then again, maybe that's because i have been pro for only 8 months and moved up my max within the last few months. So maybe the rash of barrings is soon to come.
Out of curiosity Parker, how many times have you been barred or backed off in how many play hours. I assume you must have a great act since you play mostly handheld and get a decent amount of hours.
You are green chip, right ? See you at the Party.
...between a barring and a back-off? I guess I'm just unclear of the meaning of the latter.
Thanx.
--TBW
Okay, I've been using the terms back-off, barring, etc., somewhat loosely, since the original poster probably doesn't understand the difference anyway.
I've played bit over 700 hours since I "graduated" to Green Chip levels slightly less than two years ago, almost entirely single and double deck games. In that time, I've been flat-bet once, placed on a non-flat betting restriction once, given the "you're welcome to play any game except blackjack" once, and asked to leave (but not trespassed) once.
As I mentioned above, tracking is a formidable weapon for avoiding heat. Few things will make a pit critter lose interest in you more quickly than several max bets right off the top.
DD' gets barred all over towns. Are you implying DD' is not a really good player? I hope not. Barring is a part of the game. It's like fouls in hoops. If you don't foul or get fouled during the good games, then you're not at the top of your game.
A barring, in essence, means you are told not to play bj in that store ever again, read the trespass act (in Nevada) and told to leave the casino. You could also be warned that if you return, you will be trespassing and subject to arrest.
Back-offs come in different flavors. Probably most common is "Sir, you are welcome to play any other game in our casino, but no more blackjack". Another common flavor is being told you can only flat-bet at blackjack.
Who do you think has won more money? The collective group of counters who have never gotten barred or the group who have had many barrings? Next question: do you think the figures would be even remotely close?
Show me a counter who has never been barred and I'll show you a counter who has likely never won even $10,000 in a year.
I think your response is somewhat naive. I agree in general but I gurantee Ian Anderson (using him for example, since his style is known, but there are others who are similar) makes much more than 10k a year and doesn't get barred.
that Ian has been barred many times. He probably has trouble getting a game anywhere in the United States. Wong, Snyder, Schlesinger, Carlson, George C, Uston, etc. all have been told "no more 21". No player who has not been can really be taken all that seriously. It would be like a professional boxer claiming to never have been hit.
Backoffs are neither something to be proud of nor ashamed of. They are simply a reality of advantage play. I know people who have been barred from casinos for skilled video poker play, slots, or because they were seen talking to a skilled player. Your comments show a real lack of experience in the real casino world.
BTW: Small stakes players who don't get barred only believe themselves to be highly skilled players with excellent cover and great acts. In truth, they are usually not fooling anyone. The casino simply is not concerned with their action. If and when these players ever try to really put some money in action they find out that the casinos are not as stupid as they thought.
Just kidding. I'm quite aware that I'll lose one, lose all.
It is not used the same by everyone. I call a backoff simply being told "no more 21". An 86ing is being trespassed. To me, a barring could be either. It means you are barred from playing blackjack. You may or may not be barred from the property. When I talk about the number of barrings I'm talking about backoffs & 86ings combined. Many people use barring to refer only to 86ings. I think when you see the term used the only thing you can assume is the person has been told in some fashion that his blackjack play is not welcome. It is not safe to assume that they've been kicked off the property.
because there are lots of casinos around in easy walking distance. At more remote casinos that involve time to get to it is advantageous to know whether your play is welcome. It avoids wasting time making another trip only to be told that you can't play as soon as you buy in. If I get considerable attention and heat on a particular shift and leave without getting backed off, I'll often go back in for one more short session before I leave town just to see if I'm backed off. This needn't be very long. Just buy in, hand in your rating card, and play for 10 or 15 minutes so that you are sure that they know you're there. If nothing happens, fine. Now you're ok for next time. If you get backed off then you don't have to worry about wasting a trip there in a couple of months.
It appears that
1. You believe all cover is to prevent attention
2. All play is relatively short term
3. Once your play is seen by a pb all cover is futile.
Not all high stakes works that way and many players use downtime in creating a better game.
Of course, a barring is gonna happen. Heck, even non counting players occasionaly get tossed. What I am saying is that it is less than you may think and you can definitely win much more than 10k a year. Going for short sessions, change of shifts eetc gives high ev but low overall playing time.
Remember, you have only played professionally for about 5 years.
