Real advice sought...

Lets say you knew someone who was very intelligent (by that I mean they have always been a high achiever academically). This same person hates their day to day job, not necessarily the duties of the job, just the company they are with, and makes approximately $60K /year. This person has actively been searching for new employment with very little luck due to the soft job market. This person has extensive BJ experience (the mental control to not get carried away) and takes playing very seriously. This person is also interested in other forms of gambling including Poker and sports betting, although has never done either, as well has never counted cards. This person has about $10K in "disposable" money available. Additionally, this persons goal is to complete a Bachelors and Masters Degree in Business Management.

Does anyone here feel it is possible for this person in this situation to make a living gambling full time? Is there a way this person can leave his job, make enough money gambling , and attend school full time? Current total monthly expenses amount to about $3K / month. If so, what advice would you give this person?

Thank you in advance. All advice will be appreciated.

Dave

and gamble on the sidelines. I wonder how much this person would hate his job if he had weekly paychecks that may consist of 0$.

First, I must say that I am in a different position than you are. By that I mean I am retired, have an MBA (summa cum laude), hated my previous job and managed to survive some of those who clearly made it to the top of the Peter Principle chain. On top of all that, I've been fired by the President of the US as well! I have put up with some incredibly myopic managers in my life...but, I survived because I either outwitted them or learned how to play "the game" to my advantage. Much like tens of thousands of others have had to do.

IF I had not endured night school, Saturday classes, unending term papers and the general BS that goes with being a college student, I could not have written what I did above. I worked full-time plus, while taking a heavy class load of 12-16 hours per semester.

You must NOT let the allure of gaming and casinos cloud what an education can and WILL bring to your personal life. Above my computer desk sits a picture of me receiving my "colors" and MBA degree...I wish I could show it to you and make you realize how incredibly valuable educational goals, when reached, are so vital to your economic future!

Yes, perhaps the market is soft right now, but when life gives you lemons, you must find a way to make lemonade. If getting a BS or MBA were easy, wouldn't everybody have one? Would not your value to a future employer improve dramatically with a graduate degree? I think so!

Sit down, and make a plan for your future. How soon can you register for classes, how long will it take to get your BS and immediately go into a graduate program...3 years? 4 years? Whatever it takes, if you have the financial ability, perseverance and moxie, DO NOT let all the glitter of Vegas, Tunica, Biloxi or Reno cloud your thought process. The casinos will always be there, visit occasionally to keep your skills alive, but full time? NO way! Think of what shit you'd be in if you tanked your $10k bank? Suck it up and take charge of your future...NOW!

When you get that MBA, take your favorite person on the vacation of a lifetime...maybe hike the Milford Sound in New Zealand! Then you'll be in the driver's seat!

Good luck!

Regards,
Wildcard

I appreciate your advice and feel exactly the same as you regarding education and goal development. I do not wish to turn this into a chat on educational goals, so I will respond once due to the fact I do not have your email.

My real plan is almost identical to what you had recommended. I am working full time and taking 12 credits at ASU (Management Accounting, Sociology, Intercultural Communications, and Business Law). Last semester I took Business Accounting, Statistics, Macroeconomics, and Communications. My major is Business Management with a minor in Communications. I truly value the value of a good education. My plan is to immediately enter their MBA program, with my goal eventually being executive level management at a major company.

Now a little history about my request for advice. Get ready for one of those lemons you referred to. My wife is a Registered Nurse also making pretty good money. She is supportive of my decision to attend school, to the point of agreeing to allow me to leave my job last August to attend school full time. I gave a 4 week notice at my place of employment and registered for 7 classes. We had even agreed that we would have no more children at this stage of our life (although we love kids and have an 8-year old son). I went for the vasectomy to take care of that issue. Now, heres the lemon. 4 hours and 9 minutes before I was to leave work, out for my going-away lunch, my wife called and told me she was pregnant. It turns out she probably got pregnant in the week prior to my operation. I had already hired and trained my replacement. The company I work for is a very small company with less than 30 employees, so my options were limited. They were able to keep me on, thankfully, but in a role I am not exceptionally thrilled about.

My request for advice revolves around this entire situation. My goal was to get my degree at a much accelerated rate. I enjoy school much more than work, and am exploring all of my options not to be doing exactly what I am doing now. If an educated approach to gambling could afford me that opportunity, it is at least worth considering from my point of view.

I truly appreciate the time you have given me in response to my post. My original plan above is still intact, just exploring my options.

Dave

just a few things...

60K a year isnt too bad...here in Aus that'd be about AU$110k...you will likely be making more as the years pass...

id agree and say keep the sure paycheck, and use BJ/gambling to make bit of extra ca$h...

starting up at BJ is much less stressful when you have little expenses...the less pressure to make money the better, its a casino, things will not always go the way theyre meant to...

as to the academic achievement remark, intelligence comes in different forms, academic not the highest of importance when it comes to casinos...

however you said this person has good mental control and experience, which i hope has led to a high level of wisdom when it comes to gambling...

I agree with TG.
It would be better to invest your energy and
skills in a serious job or income.
Make all this gambling only in your free time.
And please don't forget: best money couldn't
made by gambling,but at gambling.
We have many patterns in the boards.
Good luck Rainer.

A wise sage on one of these boards once said, You'll know when to turn pro when your regular job starts getting in the way of blackjack. That will be when you don't make as much money at work as you would have at the BJ tables. That is the indication to switch professions and play BJ full time and go to your other job part time.
Most players don't get there. It's similar to the inner city kid who's goal is to play in the NBA. Most can't.

Very well said Wildcard! Besides casino life is not nearly as glamorous as it seems when you visit a casino a few times a year or even a month. The more I play the more I realize that I could not become a professional. It's extremely frustrating having to deal with the drunks that are more interested in the attention they get at the BJ table than actually playing. Especially when you're trying to get in your 100 hands (or more) per hour. The constant in and out of ploppies at your table especially the ones that think they're at a regular shoe game and have no idea how to handle the cards in a pitch game. The burning eyes and nasal passages from the cigarette smoke (the more you go the worse it gets). Lets also not forget the heat from the pit. Then there's the emotional rollercoaster of big wins, the big losses, and the grind where you spend hour after hour playing but your bankroll stays about the same. In my opinion, with a $10k bank it would be very tough to replace the $60k per year you're currently making.

I wish you the best of luck with whatever you decide, and though I don't know all the details of your job/situation I think everyone experiences dissatisfaction with their jobs. This is when I try to remember what tough times really are. All you have to do is drive around and look at all those poor bastards busting ass in the hot sun for barely more than minimum wage.

Play part-time and keep your job for now at least. If you can turn your $10,000 BR into $50,000 without adding to it from your regular salary or tapping into your regular salary for other 21 expenses(travel,etc.), only then would I go full-time. GL in any way you go!

First a little bit about my background. I have a J.D. and I am licensed to practice law in Florida. However, I really detest the practice of law. So much so, that I have taken several breaks from practicing to do other things. The reason for me telling you all of this, is that Rainer's post seemed to say that education is the be all and end all of a person's life and career. For some that may be true, for others it isn't. I'm not saying that playing BJ full-time is the answer, but that there may be other possibilities that may be more fullfilling to you, financially and emotionally. If you are into education simply as a way to make money you are making a mistake. What you should do is find out what you really LOVE to do and figure out a way to do it. If you really love playing BJ to the point that you want to do it full-time, then that is what you should do. Another alternative may be to consider going into business for yourself. You don't need a formal education to do it and in the long run, if you work hard, you will probably make more money than working for someone else. Good luck at whatever you do!

Blues145

Forced to live in a place that I hate (small mid-west town) for the sake of a job I love, and unable to find a similar job in a preferable location, I too have seriously considered going pro.

So, last summer, I decided to spend six weeks in Vegas, to see if I could hack it. The first week was great and if the rest were like it, I might have chosen to quit my real job. The next week, though, was devistating -- in one night I lost most of the 80 units I won up to that point. Echoing TG's comment, rather than a $0 paycheck, how about a -$2000 paycheck? I realized, at least for me, that I could not emotionally handle that level of insecurity.

The remaining weeks were not so painful with respect to my bankroll: some were slightly positive, some were slighly negative. And as the weeks wore on, gambling became more and more of a chore. As a hobby, it is fun. But as one's daily routine, how much better is it than being a clerk in a posh office? Or, for that matter, being a dealer?

In addition, a $60,000 paycheck is worth much more once one adds in one's benefits and retirement plan.

I wish someone had given me advice like this when I was a young man, although I am not sure I would have been smart enough at the time to have listened.
@^!
Absolutely without a doubt, the one thing I regret most in life (and pay the price for every day) was not staying in college and getting my degree. What a different road my life might have taken..
Excellent advice, Wildcard.
@^)
Cyclops

Going pro full-time in the NBA, NFL, MLB, or whatever, is nothing like going pro full-time to play BJ. You will not barred from playing if you have superb skills in a real sport (unless you are caught in criminal activities, and maybe not even then). You will get a contract which will guarantee you at least some money each year you play in the NBA, etc. You will get fan recognition, media attention, possible contracts in advertising, entertainment, etc. You will bring enjoyment to other people besides yourself (hopefully!).

You will NEVER get any kind of guarantee or contract that you will be able to play the "sport" of blackjack. In fact, the longer you play and the more skilled and successful you become, the greater the chance you will achieve a "guarantee" that you CANNOT play BJ, by being kicked out of casinos more and more frequently.

Pursue something that rewards you with more than just money. Personally I have found that doing something which helps others and brings some happiness and enjoyment to other people's lives, as well as my own, has been very rewarding, regardless of the fact I'm not getting particularly rich. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy betting on card games, sports, the stock market, etc., as a HOBBY, but as a full-time occupation...no, I don't see it as a way to achieve personal fulfillment.

AB

AB wrote: "You will not barred from playing if you have superb skills in a real sport"

I would argue that you will not necessarily be barred from playing BJ if you have superb skills (at least you won't be barred any more than you decide is optimal). One of the key skills in BJ is act / camouflage. This skill is just as important as the "technical skills", and for many people, is the more difficult skill to master. So, any set of "superb skills" would include a great act and an optimal level of camouflage to maximze the EV / back-off risk equation.

Many famous pros like Stanford Wong or Ian Andersen did not always play full-time, they played more flexibly; less than 500 hours per year. Even diligent full-timers have trouble putting in 1,000 hours per year (with another 1,000+ hours in travel and scouting). My impression is most average less than $100K annually. That represents $100 hourly, solid black chip play. That requires steady travel.

To make more you would need to bet more. You would need to get many I.D.'s and disguises if you plan to bet much more. Or you would need to organize teams of fresh faces to lever your time. Nevertheless I doubt you could do much better than double this figure.

Of course your bankroll would only support green chip play with a maximum earning of $50 per playing hour or $50K per year. Consequently you would take a pay cut!

You haven't explained why you don't do this part-time. Why not play part-time at your local casino or take your next vacation in Vegas?

isn't this being more and more difficult every month? According to DD's input on this subject, even drastically changing one's appearance seems to have a shorter elapsed time of success in today's blackjack world.

AB

the subject of "getting many ID's", do you know if that isn't more difficult now, since 9/11 and the government crackdown on fake identification?

AB

a very educated adult person would think about a career in advantage play when he has never counted a card in his life, I don't buy the story.

As a professional dealing with many small to medium sized businesses it has been my experience that most MBAs and PhDs work for someone with some college, a high school diploma or less. The educated work for the less educated.

Marketing and promotional skills rank highest followed by motivation. Education of course helps. Education isn't a panacea.