Question Re: Textbook BJ v. Live Floor Play

I greatly welcome thoughts/feedback from any experienced AP's on this observation:

I have read over a dozen books now on counting (I'll refer to as "Textbook BJ") which each hold the importance of appearing to be a Gambler v. a Counter. Additionally, Textbook BJ holds the importance of survivability/longevity primarily through engaging friendly dialogue with the dealer, pit, et al. This doesn't need further explanation as you've likely read a multitude of Textbook BJ yourself.

Given this, my observation has been and continues to be that generally all BJ Gamblers (ie. Ploppies) do the opposite: They sit there, often emotionless with very little side conversation, often dead-panned, and play hand after hand. My oberservation is the exception to this -- the Textbook BJ "Gambler" personified -- is a very rare bird.

Provided that on any given night there may be 1 or 2 expert counters in any popular casino (a number I heard tossed out by a highly reputable counter mentor of mine), I highly doubt that everyone I'm observing (emotionless, dead-panned, hand-after-hand) is a counter doing his or her thing.

Walk into a casino and check out the table games. How many dealers do you see working in silence v. how many working carrying on conversations with the players?

Questions for the Experienced AP's:

How does this strike you? Do you observe similar?

Is there truly a discrepancy between what Textbook BJ preaches on how to appear as a 'Gambler' v. real life ploppie gamblers?

Thanks in advance!
Ian

Ploppies will leave a table in a very positive count after they lose X number of bets in a row (they don't know it's a positive count) and APs will continue to lose big bet after big bet because it's a positive count just like me yesterday (whose the smarter one now?).

Ploppies have learned never to take insurance and APs will do when the count warrants. (as I did yesterday and lost most of my insurance bets)

Ploppies will always do the same thing on 16 vs. 10 and 12 vs. 2 or 3 while APs will vary the actions based on the count (yesterday, every time I would surrender or stay on 16, the next card would be a 4 or 5 but if I hit, it would be a 10). They do this because the cards know that Joe is sitting in seat #2 and he must be consistent in his actions.

Ploppies will play side bets with terrible payoffs and win while APs will shake their heads at their stupidity and not play the side bet.

As far as talking at the table, some ploppies talk a lot and some don't. Same with counters.

If you can't tell, yesterday was one of my frustrating gambling days ever. Couldn't make a double, couldn't make a split. Dealer busts when I sit out and I get killed on almost every max bet. This game is very humbling.

The worst was a guy flat betting $500 in a negative count and winning at least 20 hands in a row.

Great response! I really appreciate all your insight on Ploppies.

Sounds like you're just going through an invariable patch of negative variance right now...which fortunately won't last :).

Report back with your next successful session, I and others would look forward to reading it!

Ian

and I thought that crap only happens to me.

But wait until your next visit.... the BJ twilight zone strikes again!

I pull A,9 vs 10 about a dozen times in a few hours and push every single time. To make matters worse, I get X,X vs A and the dealer has a 9 in the hole another dozen times. I just couldn't win with 20 all day.

Thankfully I've past the BJ twilight zone and in entered the Milky Way... Smooth and Rich :-).

BJC

Textbook BJ often contends an approach such as the following example will go a long, long ways in establishing rapport with the dealer...leading to greater pen, etc. This falls in the toking category:

Approach a table and take your seat. Immediately start with a considerably large bet for yourself, and a significant bet for the dealer as well. Saying something like, "I'm ready to make some money if you are, sound good?" And in seeing your bet for him, the dealer will be appreciative. He will be even more appreciative when you let him play it, "So, how should we play this one?" asking his advice on what to do on the cards dealt for his toke.

What are your thoughts on this approach? Is it worth toking or does this give up too much EV? i.e. Does the potential benefit of good rapport initiated in this matter outweigh the otherwise experienced EV?

Really looking forward to any thoughts on this one... :)

Thanks!
Ian

The problem with a toke to encourage deeper pen is that if the dealer thinks you are just another gambler, and that is what you want him to think, then pen never enters the dealer's mind. Face it, the average player does not care about pen and even would need an explaination of just what it is. He can play all night long and the only time he might think about it is when he is on a good streak and the cut card comes out.
Now if your dealer thinks you might be a counter then you could get this pen but if you do not continue to toke him heavily not only can the pen end but he may turn on you.

Sometimes, but rarely, a statement asking for a long good shoe will work but the best way I know to get decent pen is finding the dealers who cut deeper and it does not cost you a cent.

but reality can be a little different. You don't need to sit down and always carry on a conversation with the dealer or other players to get the job done.

Personally, I'm hard of hearing and I don't like to talk because I can't always understand what is being said to me. I sit there and play quietly and never talk to anyone. There are times though, that I am in a chatty mood and will initiate a conversation with the dealer.

Also remember, dealers are doing a "boring" job and most times are just going through the motions when they do talk. They're just waiting for their next "break" or looking forward to the end of their shift and could really care less what you're talking about anyway.

Don't worry about making yourself look like you have to "fit" in or be a "friend" of everyone at the table. That's not going to provide any cover, anyway. Pit critters will figure you out fast enough with or without that "act". Just play your game, play it fast, hard, and with no cover. Then move on to the next place and repeat it.

Regards,
PM

Looks like that guy bet with an edge.

I like that.

it seems to me i hear "checks play" ALOT LESS OR NOT AT ALL when the dealer knows i toke.

i also like what pm had to say.

..except by me in this forum many times.

"Counting cards is easy. Winning money, counting cards, is the hard part"

Cobbson

I'm sure somebody has to have had an experience like mine (I hope!). I was playing in Wendover a year ago. I was there for a couple days. One night I sat between 2 guys at the $25 table. They were both drinking pretty heavily and both playing that terrible side bet. 1st base was betting $50 to $100 a hand plus $10 on the side bet. 3rd base was throughly drunk and had trouble picking up his cards to say nothing about how to play them. He was betting $100 to $300 a hand (just however many chips his drunk fingers grabbed) and $50 to $100 on the side bet. 1st base was winning steadily but 3rd base was getting rich. He hit the side bet (10-1 with $100 bets) twice in the hour or so that I played with him. As luck would have it both of these guys were routinely dealt pat hands while I'm sitting between them getting stiff after stiff. I honestly couldn't imagine the cards continuing to be soooo bad while it was just the opposite on both sides of me and for so long! That was the
beginning of "the curse" that lasted for about a month. I wondered if I would ever win another session. It DID shake my faith!

I was playing in Wendover a year ago. I was there for a couple days. One night I sat between 2 guys at the $25 table.

Unless you were getting exceptional penetration -- four rounds to the three hands -- you were playing a lousy game, particularly for Wendover. More than one other player at single deck? Find another table, or stop playing until at least one of them leaves. This is particularly easy to do in Wendover.

Thanks very much for that information. I'll be putting it to use before long since I'll be in Wendover again soon!

Early toke will just leave the dealer hanging. Excessive toke is weak as bait for anything you really want to take advantage of in general. A dealer will just like or hate you on whim IMO. Most are completely indifferent, so many, it is just not worth it. You imply you're a regular, that itself is not longevity to begin with.

Your best bet to get good pen is on a female dealer, and this is literal over pun. Hormones can get you a better cut.

Unless you go the other way, good luck on that, that's not my department.

the importance of survivability/longevity primarily through engaging friendly dialogue with the dealer, pit, et al

There are plenty of social ploppies. You question the mood. The need for dialog or sociability stems from looking out of place. If you need to speak up, do so, if you talk too much, don�t. The ambience of the table dictates such. And, even if you don�t say a word, it will most likely never make a damn difference. Your appearance and mannerisms are more important, IMO.

The gurus also told you to blend in.

Provided that on any given night there may be 1 or 2 expert counters in any popular casino (a number I heard tossed out by a highly reputable counter mentor of mine),

:)

The better blackjack books are in basic agreement on things like playing strategies and counting techniques, but once you get beyond that, what you are getting is the author's personal opinion based on his own limited experience. When you get into things like toking and cover opinions can vary widely and they often do. What has worked for one person may not work for another. Often, the advice in these books is outdated and has been eclipsed by advances in technology such as computer evaluation of your play and facial recognition software.

Betting strategies are another area where many of the books are woefully inadequate and outdated.

I am saying this as an author of a blackjack book. I do think my book has good advice on the things mentioned here and was one of the first books to go into detail about optimal betting strategies for the kind of games we are being offered today.

I touted my book, but I have to say that its sections on toking and cover are largely matters of opinion as well, based on my own experience and the experience of others who have talked about their strategies in those areas. In the end, there is no substitute for getting out there and playing the game in real world conditions and learning what works or doesn't work for you.