question for the sorcerers

How long did it take you to learn to count at a professional level?! What can be considered pro-level, or how can I judge my progress properly to know what level I am at? I have been practicing for about a month now and have gotten sharper at it overall, but I don't entertain any thoughts that I'm ready for the big leagues just yet! (other than some real casino practice a few times a month at the 3dollar tables). I have read Play BlackJack Like the Pros by Kevin Blackwood, as well as flipped through Professional Blackjack by Mr.Wong (this obviously is still above my level to really apply efficiently) and would say that I am pat with BS for my home game as well as I18 and can count down a deck of cards using high-low avg. 30sec. I know i've gotten better, at first it took me 50+secs! But would really appreciate some input or stories of how you guys journeyed up through the ranks from white to black, thanks!

wow, what a great article, pretty much exactly what I was looking for, awesome! recommend it to all newbies like myself...

That's an interesting one. lol. I am in my 8th year of supporting myself solely from blackjack play. My first 3 years, playing red, I barely averaged 5 figures, one year came in below 5 figures! eek! I was early 20's at the time and had very minimal living expenses, a roommate splitting cheap rent, no car, no dependants. Just me. Most people would not consider that a professional level, but I paid all my bills. :)

Now a days I play at a little higher level green to mid black. I have averaged upper 5 figures over the last 3 years, and own a condo a block off the strip, which is no great feat in this market, but, although resonably close, have yet to break 6 figures for a year. Again, many members don't consider that a professional level either. I do.

So you will get a variety of opinions on what a professional level is. As I stated, I am a mid-level 'grinder' playing many hours, and primarily concentrate on only counting. Most people who describe themselves as professional, play at a much higher level, play limited hours and usually use advanced techniques beyond counting.

As per counting down a deck, I have always felt that to be over-rated and really see little value in it, except that it seems to be some accepted measuring stick. It doesn't simulate play. I prefer to practice playing out hands on a computer or physically dealing out hands to myself, which I still do several times a week. I have never counted down a deck in my life and suspect I wouldn't be all that quick.

Remember the PLAYER controls the speed of the game, NOT the dealer. The dealer can only go as fast as the slowest player.

Of course, I prefer quick dealers as it increases hourly earning, but sometimes it is fun to slow down a quick dealer. YOU can actually throw THEM off THEIR game. Quite often this will result in more dealer errors. :)

thankyou for you input ;p

porkbellies article on counting was great, in that it gave an actual outline on what skills to develop specifically and apprx. time it may take to develop those skills. being that i am still at the bottom looking up it gave me things to look at to evaluate if i'm trully ready to feel confident putting real money on the table knowing that i possess the capabilities to beat the house, everytime i choose to play.

one other question:

i have only one casino close (30min), and i usually play 3-5limit 6deck 1.2-1.5 das H17, should i really be concerned about overspreading and getting caught counting at this level of play? Have you guys ever heard of people getting 86'd at 3 dollar and 5 dollar tables??

say i'm ultra obvious no doubt about it counting at a 3dollar table spreading 1-10, will they give two cents? Are all counters created equal in the eyes of casinos?

Part of the trick is to learn just what the tolerance level is at different places. Here in Vegas, there is a store downtown that we refer to as the 'sweaty spaniard' because they sweat ever a small spread in red action and are quick to back you off. It is almost comical. Many places don't sweat low limit action unless you make a pest of yourself by playing too long and too often.

Most bigger casinos that I play, don't get too excited unless you start betting over $500, Especially if you keep your sessions short. $500 seems to be a threshold level in many places, which kind of creates a dilemma for many solo players. My bankroll is currently at a level that can support higher wagers than this, but doing so, will bring more attention and backoffs/barrings which will result in being able to play less. So it's a trade off.

If you have only one store available to you, that could be a problem.

I've gotten 86'd from 2 stores in my locale and a current half-shoe at another for a while now. Two of the casinos sat back and waited for me to learn how to play the game correctly (proper play and surrender indices) and realize that my 1-5 spread wasn't enough to make money. When I had finally learned how to play and had a 1-40 spread I got the tap. Now I've had to increase rounds at the other stores and learn how to cover up my $35/hour game. So the message I learnt late was that if you frequent enough and play naively like myself, you run out of casinos fast.

Unless you bring it down to 25 seconds per deck you're almost certain to lose the count against a reasonably fast dealer. Remember that you will also have to make playing decisions which will interfere with your counting.I would strongly advise against picking a head on game in the beginning.The psychological pressure from the dealer will be too strong and you rapidly get confused. Choose third base at a busy table so will get enough time to update the count before you have to make your playing decisions.

Francis Salmon

I agree that speed in counting down a deck is over-rated. Never did it and it's never hurt me. I have played for over 25 years and mayybe lost the count a dozen times, always due to multiple splits and doubles with a big bet down. As others have said, you control the pace of the game, not the dealer. And it's probably good to start at third base (despite the pressure) so you have more time to act. You'll get the hang of it pretty quickly.

i really appreciate those of you who took the time to give a valuable response here. I have been practicing a little bit of everything up to this point, and have broken the 30 second mark in counting down a single deck, however i agree that counting down a deck is no where near a simulation of actual casino play where the cards are spread out on the table....i still have quite a ways to go all in all! but i have gotten quicker and more accurate as i've progressed so far, which is uplifting LOL.

side note: i went to casino yesterday with my friend for some field experience and wouldn't you know its 100 times harder to keep the count at an actual table then on your kitchen table, so it was a good measuring stick for me:)