Question about team play in Michigan

Hello BJ21!
First, great site, very helpful! Now my question, has anyone tried team play in any of the small Indian Casinos? I might be naive, but I find it hard to believe that there security is great. Thanks for any input guys.

Trouble is, in these small casino's, there are not many tables available for a "big player" type team to exploit. Once a casino is played out for the shift, which can be quickly, the travel to the next target can be excessive. Two-person semi-playall at 2D games can sometimes be productive though.

Frenchman

Newb,

You may be naive. Just because they may be small casinos does not mean they are lacking in sophistication.

Native Americans in the GNW are very aware and not "Marks" as discovered rudely by a few teams over the years.

Actually this manner of play is better for larger casinos with many tables.

I take it you have seen the movie, 21?

Iggy

LOL, yeah i have Ignacio. I have been counting for about 4 years, off and on. I practice at home for hte fun of it, counted quite a bit by myself at Turtle Creek one summer and did well. My college roommates saw the movie and they are absolutely hooked, 2 of which I think could be great counters if they are dedicated. So I was thinking a small team of 3 starting around Labor day.

The reason I thought the security wasnt that good was based off some of the people I know at the casino in my area. I know 3 pit bosses as friends, a few dealers, and lots of security (Im a criminal justice major and we get hired alot by them). Problem was, I dont know how the "real" security is, (people looking from the eye in the sky). Anyways, thanks for your input guys!

Oh, we arent looking for big money at all, just a few extra spending dollars here and there.

Problem with these two casino's are that when they are not busy, there are not many tables open, and when busy, it can be hard to find spots to wong in and out. A team of three counters at these places will soon stand out like Barack Obama at a skin head concert.

Frenchman

I think you are right my friend. AND we are gonna try it at an even smaller smaller casino most likely. Oh well, if we get backed off, no biggie, its more of a fun/hobby thing for the next 6 months.

There are many reasons why attempting to team play in small Indian Casinos is implausible.
Rather than outline just how bad an idea that is; I will present one caveat.

Indian Reservations are sovereign states. You have NO rights whatsoever.

I had an acquaintance who was beaten half to death in an Indian Casino's hotel and spent 2 weeks in Intensive Care. His brother is a lawyer in that state, and had the unpleasant task of telling his card-counting brother the truth -- that he had NO recourse to any manner of redress. Nobody would be arrested and he would not receive a cent in compensation.

I wish his brother would of filed a lawsuit against there "sovereign state" much like foreigners file lawsuits against the USA. It would be interesting to see how that would of panned out. If anything, a case like that would make the National news, especially nowadays with Fox, CNN, and CNBC. I wonder if the casino might pay him off, instead of getting all of the negative attention.

So, if anyboby want to commit murder he only have to go on a reservation ?

The main of team play with a BP when counting cards. One is that you are harder to detect. But casinos are more aware of the whole BP scheme. In a small casino they would just look at people they have not seen before betting table min.

If you have a BP and two spotters, why not just have the three people counting at three different tables? On a person-by-person basis this is more efficient in getting money. This assumes the casino is clueless and would detect a big spread just about as easily as a BP.

Hey Flash, I jus get this idea. Lets' place this affidavit on customers' car windshields of Indian casinos.

State of __________)

County of __________________) ss.:

AFFIDAVIT

I, Flash, residing at __________ Street, City of _____________, State of _________________, U.S.A., being first duly sworn on oath according to law, depose and say:

That Indian Reservations are sovereign states. You have NO rights whatsoever.
I had an acquaintance who was beaten half to death in an Indian Casino's hotel and spent 2 weeks in Intensive Care. His brother is a lawyer in that state, and had the unpleasant task of telling his card-counting brother the truth -- that he had NO recourse to any manner of redress. Nobody would be arrested and he would not receive a cent in compensation.

That I understand willfully false statements on this Affidavit can be punished by fine and or imprisonment.

________________________

Flash

Subscribed and sworn to before me this

______day of ___________, 2008.

________________________________
Notary Public

In truth you always have the "right" to bring a lawsuit -- but that can only be done in their "Tribal Court" A "Kangaroo Court" of the first order.

I did something similar.
Here in New York State, "racinos" and Indian Casinos provide what looks like Video Poker machines.
They are nothing of the kind.
They are cleverly designed Video Lottery terminals.
The result is pre-determined.
They simply provide you with cards to draw, but it does NOT effect the outcome no matter how you play.
The fake machines swallow up 8% of you money -- while most real Video Poker machines will take less than 1%

When I found a paper written on this topic I printed up a stack of copies and handed them out at our local Saratoga Racino.

I was hustled off the property by the State Police.

If you want to see what I had handed out - ask me.

P.S. I sent email copies to all of the local T V news departments and newspapers. Just one newspaper ran the story but it was a Sun. edition front page.

I have pointed out before that your opinions are wrong. Why do you keep making this statement when the barest amount of research would show you that many or your statements are false. Sovereignty in this case does not mean what you think it means.

From my previous response:

It is not remotely true that you have no rights in a tribal casino. Tribal territory is very much part of the USA and subject to federal laws. Any serious criminal offence committed on a reserve is covered by the Major Crimes Act and the Indian Civil Rights Act has extended all significant protections of the Constitution to both Indian and non-Indians on tribal land.

Of course you can be assaulted in a tribal casino or a non-tribal casino. In both cases you have legal recourse. If you are assaulted in a tribal casino, jurisdiction depends on the state in which the crime occurs and the status of those involved; sometimes it will be federal and sometimes state.

There are plenty of issues to be concerned with when gambling at tribal casinos. You don't have the same ability to take civil action and tribal gaming commissions are likely to be of little help in disputes over casino actions but spreading disinformation will not help advantage players protect their rights. Everyone should be informed about what those rights are before playing in tribal casinos.

Thats kind of what I thought. We serve warrants to people on the reservation and not once have they said that we couldn't or brought any charges on us.

The legal issues surrounding tribal casinos are complicated and changing (generally in the direction of stripping away tribal sovereignty). Recent court cases have found that federal laws applied by default to tribal casinos (in this case labor laws) unless specifically exempted by legislation. This is a major change in how sovereignty has been interpreted but will probably have little impact on APs.

There has never been anything preventing individuals being named in a suit if there is individual wrong-doing. Suing a corporation (like a casino) that is owned by the tribe is another matter. The courts have held that tribe-owned casinos have the same immunity from civil action as the tribal government unless it has waived immunity. Indian corporations that deal with non-Indian companies often waive their immunity because no one will work with them without the ability to sue. Casino are a different matter because customers are willing to spend their money at a casino without the ability to sue or they are ignorant of the legal situation. Some casinos have partially waived immunity or set up processes semi-independent of the tribe but most don't. If you have a dispute with a casino about casino procedures or the ruling of a pit boss, you will likely be out of luck if the tribal gaming commission decides to back up the casino. There is no guarantee of a fair hearing and likely no further legal recourse.

Try Little River. They have plenty of tables and not usually crowded. never had an issue there.

As you state, Indian casinos are under the jurisdiction of our federal court system. Always have been. The myth that they are sovereign is a popular one, repeated often on bj21. Perhaps it is romantic to think so.

Flash,

Just found this old thread and wondered if the guy was a counter (who beat him up and why?

He was a counter and a rather heavy bettor for that matter.

Obviously he will never know who attacked him or why, but his assailant was Native American.