Queen versus 9 in the hole card viewer -- Can a dealer answer?

No counting theory here. I have a question for a dealer.

I'm now the proud owner of a REAL blackjack table. Won't say how I got it or where it's from, but it's real. A used one from Vegas. (They're legal to own if you're not running a casino).

My question is this -- how can a dealer tell the difference between a Q and a 9 in the card viewer for the hole card? They look VERY similar -- I looked at every card in the mirror. For some reason, I have to put them in sideways to see them, and now I can't remember if that's right or not. As much as I play, I should know!

Is it hard to tell the difference between a Q and a 9 in the mirror, if my viewer is correct and the card has to slide in sideways?

I'm a dealer.

If you have a mirror window on your BJ table you should only be able to see the Ace by putting the card in normally. You should only be able to see the face card (Queen or otherwise) by turning the card sideways. No other cards should be visible with the mirror. If they are then you are not using casino quality cards. Check the box for "Casino Quality" written on it. Some decks though, you can't see anything in the mirror except for a black mark.

Most people think that, as dealers, we can see the card put into the viewer. This is not true. Obviously, you having the vegas table at your house can confirm this fact. All we can see is a clip of the Ace, because if you'll notice your Aces most likely have 4 "A" symbols on it as compared to the other cards. As for the 10 cards you may notice that the 10, J, Q, K, are slightly closer to the border of the card. This makes it so you ONLY know if there is a BJ or not.

Any more questions about dealing procedures, feel free to ask.

I noticed that.

I was using cards with no border around the picture (face cards) and noticed the difference immediately when I changed to a Bicycle deck. There's a border around the face card.

It really IS interesting. What the dealer sees is much less than you might think. You can see the top of the Q or the 9 symbol -- just the rounded part. With the K and J, the symbol is unique enough to let the dealer know what it is, and the "10" is the only two-character symbol in the deck. That would cover all the "face up Ace" possibilities.

The Q is much narrower than the 9 on most decks; I suppose that helps. Still, the next time I'm playing and I see a dealer pause when peeking, I'll wonder if it's a Q/9 problem ... :)

The dealer can't REALLY see a full image of his or her own card. As many times as I tried, I couldn't do it. And I've been at it for hours.

Many cards, I COULD tell what they were. But as fast as a dealer checks, it's obviously more of a "ten or not ten" question or an "ace or not ace" question. Unless you REALLY look, the hole card is pretty hard to deduce.

Well, then, can an A versus 4 be confusing in a dark, smoky casino? I could spot it because of a difference in the size of the triangle, but I could see where it could be a problem in low light.

And my other question -- the mirror viewers are one thing, but how do the lighted ones with buttons work? OCR (optical character recognition?)

Oh -- now I know why cards sold in the gift shop have rounded edges. Ain't no WAY an Ace will read straight up in one of those!

Thanks. This is fascinating.

PS...

I was playing with several decks I got from Vegas gift shops; the kind "officially used in play at this fabulous casino." All of mine, for some reason, have two aces, not the four you mentioned per card.

So, next time I see a dealer slide a card into a reader up and down, THEN sideways, do I know why? Or can that be done? In other words, if you DON'T see it right-side up, it isn't there?

In the "casino quality" cards which the previous poster mentioned, the Ts, Js, Qs, and Ks have their values printed close to the edge of the cards, while for the non-ten-valued cards, there is a blank space in the area close to the edge of the card. As a result, when the dealer puts the card (sideways) into the mirror device, he sees something if the card is a ten value, and nothing but blank space otherwise. So if it is a 9 he will see nothing, just as he would if it was any other non-ten card.

On the other hand, if the dealer puts it in without turning it sideways, he is looking at a corner of the card where the aces have an "A" printed, and all other cards have nothing (since the aces have an "A" on each corner, while the other cards only have their value printed on two of the 4 corners). So again, if he doesnt flip it sideways before checking, he only sees something if there is an ace down, otherwise he sees blank space.

As a result, when the dealer checks for blackjack, he is NOT able to determine the value of the card if he doesn't have a blackjack, because all he sees is plain white. When he checks, plain white = no blackjack, anything else = blackjack.

This is how it was explained to me by a dealer at the casino where I play, when I asked a few months ago.

Keith

blackjack decks that are used in casino play are not the same kinds of cards that consumers buy in regular stores like Bicycle and Tally-Ho. everyday poker cards are printed in a format known as "standard index" which is the usual small number and suit symbol located on the upper left and lower right corners of each card. you will see this type if you play real table poker in a casino, but not for blackjack. for 21 games, casinos order a special layout which is called "Tech-Art". at first glance you can hardly notice the difference between the two formats, and I gather that many people have played casino blackjack for years not realizing what or why a dealer can see certain things in his viewfinder but not others (and keep a straight face the whole time too!).

the main reason regular people are not familiar with Tech-Art playing cards is because you can't buy them in regular stores. You have to find them in casino gift shops, or gambling specialty outlets, or buy them on ebay. And when you do find a real Tech-Art deck, it's 'cancelled' by the casino with a hole drilled in the middle, corners cut or shaved off, and/or black ink splattered on the edges, so they can't be snuck back into legal play again. And even so, not all cancelled casino cards are Tech-Art cards (through conversely, ALL Tech-Art cards come only from casinos). I've collected over 30 decks of casino-used decks so far and can now see the differences between all the formats. here's what you need to know:

1. numbers 2 through 9 - these are generally the same as standard index except that the symbols at the corners are printed a half inch space downwards from the corner. if you try and stick these cards into a blackjack table viewfinder, you will see nothing...no matter which direction you hold it. if you ever wondered if the dealer knows what card is in the hole if it is not an ace, 10 or face card, the answer is...NO. so stop daydreaming that he or she is gonna give you some kind of magic signal when it's your turn to hit or stand (raise one eyebrow for a pat hand...raise both for a stiff...yeah right!)

2. tens and face cards - these are exactly the same as standard index. you can see these in the viewfinder if you stick them in SIDEWAYS. that is why when the dealer has an ace up, he'll turn his hand horizontally before asking for insurance. when inserted vertically into a viewfinder, the dealer will not see anything EXCEPT an ace (see below). as much as you think your dealer has an evil look in his eye when he has a 20, the truth is, he has no idea.

3. aces - Tech-Art aces have the symbols printed on all four corners, but in two different ways! on the upper left and lower right (the standard corners), the ace is indented like numbers 2 through 9. that's because if the dealer has an ace up and another ace in the hole, that's not a blackjack and the dealer still won't know what's underneath. However, a situation that occurs more often is when a dealer has a 10 or face card up and needs to check for an ace underneath. If you were using a standard index deck and slid any card into the viewfinder vertically, nothing would ever be seen. but since the Tech-Art ace has the additional two corners printed directly on the edge of the upper right and lower left, the dealer will be able to detect it properly. some casinos use their resort logo or some other unique symbol in those corners instead of the letter "A", but the effect is the same...you LOSE! (or push if you're lucky)

calista who bought the used blackjack table, is probably trying to use the viewfinder with a standard index deck, which of course won't work. there is no situation where a dealer would ever have to check for a 9 in the hole. if you live in vegas, get some Tech-Art decks from the Gamblers General Store, or check out the shop at your favorite casino. otherwise, search for "casino playing cards" on ebay (look for auctions that have a picture of the cards spread out so you can determine if they are the right format). most cancelled blackjack decks can generally be had for a dollar each, which is much cheaper then a new deck of Hoyle at the drugstore anyway!

Read subject line...this is what I explained and Keith said it again perfectly.

As for the Automatic blackjack hole card devices (Scan Jack), there is a black hash mark on the Aces and faces the Scan Jack will determine if there is a black hash mark or not on the card to see if there is a blackjack.

That makes sense. Even though I AM using decks purchased in casino gift shops, there's no guarantee those are "Tech Art" decks. This is the first I've heard of the term.

In fact, thinking about it, I seriously doubt many casinos would sell the Tech Art decks in their shops; instead, they'd sell decks used at tables with no readers (SD, DD tables) where the dealers check by hand. An advantage player with a deck of Tech Art cards, a real BJ table and the book "Read The Dealer" by Steve Forte of International Gaming Specialists could develop an edge.

(I recommend "Read The Dealer" only after you've mastered the precepts of counting. Basics first, body language of dealers second. And most dealers DO have body language, when you know what to look for.)

Well, advantage playing is just that .. looking for an advantage. I still have yet to decide how what I know now is an advantage for when I'm at the other side of the table. But maybe it is.

Thanks for the help! I'll be in Vegas this weekend (no, I don't live there), but I look nothing like my nom de board. (For one, I'm not bulimic.) I'll tell you if I notice anything.

Click below.

the phrase "casino quality" only refers to the thickness of the paper used to make the card, and the coating/finish to protect it. a $3 pack of Bee cards you buy in the store is the same exact grade as the Bee decks used in the casinos, but yours will always be standard index and theirs could be index or tech art, or who knows. the only other brands that you'll see used in casinos are Aristocrat, Gemaco and Paulson, most of which are not available for sale on a widespread retail basis (Aristocrat is made by the same company as Bee and is not available for sale to consumers at ALL.)

About 2/3 of the used decks I've purchased from ebay have ended up being in tech format, so there's a good chance that you'll find a bunch for yourself once you get to vegas. keep in mind that blackjack tables that deal shoe games will need 6-8 decks per shift as opposed to just 2 for poker (and even then it's just one deck in play at a time). So by the time the decks are dumped in the gift shop, there's gonna be a lot more tech blackjack decks available for sale, unless the casino doesn't want to bother re-collating 416 cards into single decks again. also, as casino table poker is rapidly increasing in popularity, it's possible that more standard index decks will come into circulation, but I think it's still a long way to catch up with blackjack. as far as whether casinos care about the public getting their hands on tech printed decks for practice or possible cheating purposes, I really don't think so. the only thing they'd worry about is used cards being snuck back into live play, hence the card cancellation procedures. as far as they're concerned, once they punch a hole in it, give them a dollar and go knock yourself out.

for a more insider's view of the exciting world of casino playing card supply management, you can download the official sales sheet from the US Playing Card Company in Cincinnati, Ohio. the link below will download an 8MB PDF file which shows you all the possible colors, custom inserts, logo placements and card face layouts, including the standard index, tech-art, enhanced/jumbo print, "no peek", and the rarely used RTW design of which I own one vintage deck from bally's LV. Hell, make your own casino cards for fun - minimum custom order is only 2,520 decks...

How is having a deck of the cards to practice with going to give you an edge?

More importantly, how are you going to be able to read the dealer when the dealer doesn't know what his down card is??? The whole point here is that if he checks for BJ, and does not have the BJ, then he has NO CLUE what his card is because all he sees is blank white space. You cannot read the dealer because the dealer does not know what the card is!

Keith