Q. about risks with counting

Hi everyone. Just starting to learn about Black Jack and counting etc.
Got a question I`ve always wondered about. If I learn to count, go to a casino and win a lot of money, they understand that I`m counting and decide to stop me. Will I get to keep the money I`ve managed to win up until that moment, or can they take it away from it? As far as I`ve understood it`s not illegal to count "manually"?

I guess that most people that play professionally play with low stakes just to be able to keep playing? But if I was to go on a vacation to say Monte Carlo once a year, and I was somewhat skilled at BJ and counting, then I should be able to play with high stakes doing my best to cover I`m counting and play until they throw me out right?

you win counting as long as you play at legal casinos and better countries. Some casinos at East Europe refused to cash counters' chips... West Europe, America, Asia, Australia... you are OK. But don't high stakes until you are really sure about your skill.

Read the three books mentioned and then we will talk about why you are not going to win the bank at Monte Carlo.

In the past week or two (I'm terrible with time frames) someone posted that they'd been caught counting and the casino refused to cash out the chips. In 20 years of playing, this is the first time I ever heard of such a thing.

I know nothing about non-US casinos, but in this country I don't think it's something you need to worry about.

The suggestions for methods of play when you play very regularly, as I do, or playing occasionally in strange casinos vary widely. There are entire books covering these subjects.

With all due respect, it sounds as if you have a lot of homework to do before you need to be concerned about such things.

Good Fortune.

Oh, will be quite some time before I`ll have to worry about such a thing. Was just curious, that`s all.
Thanks all for answering.

Hi Newbie,I come from outside USA (Germany)
In our country counters have no problems.You can
spread your bets as you like.
But our 6 decks rules and the crowded tables not
so good.Wonging is moostly not possible.
I think the highest risk here is the Standard deviation.
Good cards Rainer

"I guess that most people that play professionally play with low stakes just to be able to keep playing?"

Wrong. Most pros play with high stakes. If you hope to make serious money in BJ, you gotta bet serious money, simple as that. Most pros play with a hit and run approach, spreading their play out among different shifts and many casinos so that any given personnel hopefully don't get a good look. If they are backed off or barred, they simply avoid that casino, and especially that shift, for a few months and start over with a new name. A few take Ian's approach and hide in plain sight, giving up a good bit in EV by limiting bet spreads/jumps and making some cover plays in exchange for longevity. Using this approach, the player also tries to make up for the lost EV through comps (higher comps are another reason pros would not play small). They get air reimbursements multiple times on an inflated priced ticket that they never even used, sell comps they don't need to others, etc.

Not sure if it's the same incidence In Hiding was speaking of, but a few months ago a player was barred at a casino in the U.S. and not allowed to cash out before being escorted out, but he was allowed to keep his chips. This seemed to just be the poor decision of one smartass employee at the time. Of course he was able to cash the chips in various ways over time, but it just made it inconvenient.

Makes me glad I took $12k from that particular casino last year... hehe.

Learning more and more as each day goes by. =)
Aren`t there players that are "famous", not able to play at many places? I guess the risk of that happening to me in the future is rather slim though.
So your advice to me if I go abroad, both to enjoy vacation and to try to make some money at BJ, is to not care so much about the risk of being detected when counting because I won`t be back for at least another six motnhs?

And while we`re at it, I suppose the casino don`t care all that much if you`re playing with higher stakes or with lower if they find out that you`re counting right? Just that they`re keeping a closer watch on the high stakes table?

We're not recommending reckless.

You're less likely to be nailed at low stakes than high. And if you get nailed in a major casino town, you may have your ID on watch for a long time. If they catch you, they won't stop to think whether your new at the game or whether they just haven't caught you before.

If you want to have some fun AND make some money, use some good sense and discretion. Unless you really don't care, there's no sense in being reckless and ruining your playing days before they start.

Just my opinion.

casinos LOVE having somebody win money at the table. There is nothing worse then having a table full of losers. They get angry and stop playing. If SOMEBODY is winning the losers stay longer.

THUS - the trick is to not try to take ALL the casinos money in one sitting. As long as you are being a good player, are happy and are making other people happy they they will not care it you are counting. As soon as you get greedy, BAM. forget it, you have burned your brides.

I'm sure one casino I play knows I count. But I make the other players happy and don't push the envelope.

and got all money, includung winnings back.

Sounds logical. Kind of like when someone win the progressive JACKPOT at bandits. The casino that lose the money maybe doesn`t feel all that happy about it, but the rest of Vegas is very happy since that`s excellent advertisement.

As long as I win, and do it not ruining the casino, the rest of the players at the table think they`ll have a chance to win as well and thus stay.
Think I`m starting to getting a better understanding on how this works now. =)

You to play there. Even when I get in a bad streak and lose some big bets I try to keep a positive attitude (no matter how much it sucks).

I think the main reason people get banned is they get greedy or advertise that they are counting (thus encourage others to try it).

Remember though (very important). Money management is more important then the actual counting. Don't press when you are losing or winning. Become a robot and stay with the money system you started with.

Keep books at home so when you win 10 sessions in a row you can see it's not THAT easy, and when you lose 10 in a row you can see that winning DOES happen.

Blackjack is one long lifelong game broken up into tiny sessions, like baseball or golf. Also remember that BJ counting is still basically a luck game and you are only trying to change that luck in your favor. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

... most (all?) counters makes money? I`ve understood that there are players living on playing BJ?

"... most (all?) counters makes money?"

No. A lot of counters are recreational players. They may know how to count, but they often fail to make money for any of a number of reasons. They may not understand basic principals of std dev, ROR, BR requirements, and how these all relate, and therefore go bust due to overbetting their BR. Some lack self control and emotional strength to bet and play according to the original plan no matter if they are way ahead or far behind. Many simply do not get in enough time to approach the long run & don't overcome short run losses even though they may play a strong game. Some can't stay away from or handle booze. Others can't recognize good game conditions like pen, table crowding, dealer speed, etc. and play lousy games w/ too small of spread.

"I`ve understood that there are players living on playing BJ?"

Yes, some play full time and have consistantly done very well for years.

"... most (all?) counters makes money? I`ve understood that there are players living on playing BJ?"

Actually, most counters lose money. Otherwise, the casinos would be a lot more agressive about tossing us than they are. This is due to a variety of factors, some of the most common being:

1. Not spreading agressively enough. You must be willing to put the big bets out when the count calls for it.

2. Giving away too much EV in the way of dealer tokes, CW tokes, and cover plays.

3. Being underbankrolled. The first big negative swing wipes them out.

4. Mistakes - even the best system provides only a small edge, and it doesn't take very many mistakes to completely wipe that out.

5. Not saying no. Do you think the casinos prvide you with free cocktails just so you will have a good time?

However, just about any counter can make money, provided:

1. He (or she) has an adequate bankroll

2. He has practiced his system enough to use it error-free, or very close to it.

3. He is savvy enough to avoid getting kicked out of every casino he plays in.

And yes, there are a handful of players who make all or most of their income playing blackjack. A few of them even post regularly to these boards. Hang around and you will figure out who they are.

A lot more are like myself: Blackjack is not my primary source of income, but it provides me with a substantial second income.

and I'm not sure I can add anything except that YES, some make a living at it but very few and for them IT'S A JOB. Not a fun little thing to do. They probebly work greater then 40 hours a week. They have no retirement, no vacation time, they feel guilty when not at the tables trying to make money.

They have A LOT of money BEFORE they try to pro.

One thing Parker sais is so true. MANY counters go broke because they are under banked. That is why casinos normally don't mind counters.

I would bet that most pro's have gone broke more then once.

Just a minor technical correction to an otherwise excellent series of posts. Underbankrolled counters are still a threat to casinos.

Counters who don't bet agressivly enough to have a positive expectation don't generally hurt casinos. The same goes for coutners who make too many mistakes.

However, underbankrolled counters still hurt casinos. The underbankrolled, but otherwise skilled counter has the same expectation per $1 bet as the sufficiently bankrolled player: positive for the player, negative for the casino. While the underbankrolled player is likely to go broke, the few that don't can walk away with large winnings. The result from the casinos standpoint is still as loss.