Professional or Not?

I found this message board about a month ago and have a question. I apologize if these same questions were posed in previous threads (I'm sure they are but I am too lazy to sift thru 100,000 messages).

1) What constitutes a blackjack professional? I know this is mainly a subjective question but would be curious as to the responses. My answer to this question would be anyone who plays 300+ hours/year and whose minimum bet level is $25. Of course, I think it could be assumed that all BJ Pros are 99% accurate in their system.

Thanks to all that respond.

What constitutes a blackjack professional? I know this is mainly a subjective question but would be curious as to the responses. My answer to this question would be anyone who plays 300+ hours/year and whose minimum bet level is $25. Of course, I think it could be assumed that all BJ Pros are 99% accurate in their system.

Professional means you draw your income primarily from that activity, further qualifications are not required to call yourself a pro. Perhaps you mean "expert", which is more subjective.

Having said that most pros do meet the requirements you describe. A minority play fewer hours, only hitting the baize every few months to take advantage of an especially favourable promotion or game vulnerability. Even then, they may often still spend 300 hours+ networking and scouting.

There are so many gray areas when you start labeling pro, semi pro, recreational advantage player etc. So one person derives 53 percent of their income from gambling and another 49 percent from gambling . By defintion one would be a professional and the other wouldnt but basically they are the same.

I prefer to think of someone who has made at least $100k in their blackjack career as a professional. This must entail some level of expertise and gaining longevity.

out 12,000 a year gambling for the past 6 years isnt a professional. Im just not the label type of person because individuals and situations can be so radically different.

A professional gambler is someone who writes a book and then calls himself a "professional" even though he may have never won a dime at actual gambling.

You can't put a percentage on the definition. To do so requires one to face the question of whether one can be a "professional" in more than one profession, which, of course, he can; thus, he could be a professional in five professions or ten. At this point, the percentage method clearly falls apart.

A more rational definition, then, is one of character of the activity. First, you have to keep in mind the Supreme Court has dealt with essentially the same subject extensively in the area of tax treatments of "hobby losses" -- and the result was so inconclusive that Congress had to come back with its infamous "Safe Harbor Provision" for hobby loss deductions. But I think there is useful information in there somewhere.

First, you would have to be engaged in the activity primarily for profit and not primarly for recreation. You would also have to devote significant attention to the activity. You would have to treat it as a business engaged in for profit. Thus, if you kill time at the crap table or playing less-than-profitable VP games, you probably aren't a pro. There would be no requirement that you MAKE MONEY in any given period. Any professional can go through a period where he doesn't make money -- it's part of business.

There are certainly other characteristics, but I'd think these are the really telling items.

You're correct. Someone playing for that long should make substantially more than this and be able to support himself, let alone a family. There are also travel considerations which eat up a lot of EV. I've seen those guys playing their 8-16 hr stretches in Atlantic City and that has never struck me as having a life.

I've also had a few years when my net winnings were under $20k and blackjack was my sole means of income. It's at those times when one questions anyone's sanity for trying to play blackjack for a living.

SD Player makes some excellent suggestions. I've never considered myself a blackjack expert, and am somewhat math challenged in a lot of respects. It's entirely possible a "pro" is not an "expert", and vice-versa.

I learned something. According to my dictionary, a blackjack professional is:

"participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs"

Either you are an amateur (not me!) or you are a pro!

.. if you're more motivated by the money than by the thrill of the hunt, then you're a pro. If the variance is an annoyance rather than "part of the fun", then you're a pro. If you can time after time swallow your pride and subjugate your ego for the greater good, you're a pro.

Notice that I'm not saying that a pro is necessarily "better" than an amateur. But I think long before you define a professional by a profit margin, you should consider doing so on attiude considerations.

M.

Professional means you draw your income primarily from that activity,

With this definition Michael Jordan is not a professional basketball
player since he makes most of his money from shoes.

Tax law has phrases like "business-like manner", which surely
must be relevant in a definition of the term.

It's probably easier to come up with a list of things which
constitute professional behavior and amateur behavior.
Sometimes a professional may act "unprofessionally".
Sometimes an amateur might have professional expertise in some
part of the game.

Here's some unprofessional behavior:

- playing with a fellow counter at the same table, raising and
lowering your bets roughly in unison
- quitting a lucrative game because the guy on 3rd "doesn't know
how to play right"
- trying to impress a PB with how smart you are
- bragging at every cocktail party about how you play with an
advantage and have been kicked out of casinos
- quitting a trip early when you are up in order to feel good about
the win

Here's some professional behavior:
- encouraging people to think you are an idiot/loser
- when important for the best conditions playing by yourself rather
than with friends
- keeping scrupulous track of wins/losses, as well as observations
of conditions/staff

I'm sure people can add to these.

Saying, that one is a professional blackjack player does not mean
that one's profession is blackjack. If you say that your profession
is blackjack then you are indeed implying that you derive most of
your income from playing blackjack. If you say that you are a
professional blackjack player, this means that you play blackjack
at a professional level, i.e. with advanced knowledge and practice.
Michael Jordan may be a professional basketball player, but his profession is a salesman.