Preferential Shuffling on CSM

I know that most APs don't like to play CSMs but exceptional rules can make this an interesting option.
The common and widely accepted procedure with these machine is that the dealer refeeds the machine as soon as the discards are about one deck thick. This allows the machine to digest the cards properly.Some dealers refeed after each round but what I find totally unacceptable is when they put the cards of a busted hand right back into the machine.This would mean that these cards could show up a second time in the same round!Not really the idea of a card game.
What happened to me lately was even worse.The dealer "forgot" to refeed the machine while the discards were piling up for more than two decks.You will guess that the count was in the cellar since the "shoe" had started with a load of tens and aces. When I told the dealer that it might be time to refeed the machine she had the audacity to reply that this was her own business.Not surprisingly the pitboss supported her and even claimed that they had the right to leave up to five decks out of play!Finally the dealer refed the machine but since not all the cards could be digested at once the first deck which had been rich in high cards still remained in the discards.I went immediately on strike but when after a quarter of an hour the clump of high cards sill hadn't found its way back to the machine, I had no choice but to leave this horrible place.
My questions are: 1)Did anybody have a similar experience?
2)Does anybody know the exact regulations regarding the discards?
The danger of dealer manipulation is really enormous here.

Francis Salmon

I have always avoided CSMs on general principles, but this makes this decision seem even better. Wouldn't _you_ like to cut a deck of high cards out of play and keep 'em out of play if you were the house?

I've never thought about this, and from what I have learned by asking a few about your question, nobody is aware of any "regulation" (as in enforceable law) that covers this, which means that yes, the house can further manipulate their "edge" by doing this if they want to...

Chances are that the dealer didn't notice the slug of big cards that she was leaving in the tray. If you could find them doing this same scenario with leaving a large slug of small cards in the discard tray, you could have a wale of a time.

Switzerland is not Nevada and I have big hope that they will take this seriously. The abuse is really evident. So, I don't think this can become general practice.

Francis Salmon

Actually this very situation has occurred with a break-in-dealer another day in that same casino.The problem is that it's not so easy to handle.I started marking the count by discard segments but when the dealer puts part of the cards back into the machine, the break point rarely coincides with the limits of my markings. So, the resulting count remains largely guess work.
Since in that particular casino, I have even a slight advantage off the top, I prefer things to remain neat and clean.

Francis Salmon

If this place consistantly withholds cards (up to 5 decks) on a CSM, then what you have is a real BJ game. All you have to do is start your count after they return discards to shuffler. And with your statement that you have an advantage off the top, this might be a money making opportunity.

Frenchman

Most players put the cards when the discards amount to one deck and I think that's the way they are instructed.At some rare occasions unexperienced dealers forget to put the cards back but as I explained above it's not so easy to exploit.When they put only part of the discards back (in order to avoid a jam) you cannot simply reset the count to 0. You have to estimate the count of the cards that remain in the tray.Not an easy thing to do.
The incident from the other night was with a very experienced dealer and I'm sure she knew exactly what she was doing.You simply cannot play on under such circumstances.

Francis Salmon

Near me, there is a large Indian casino with all CSM's. I go there sometimes if it's real convienent. There are so many tables that I just wong and back-count until I find reason to play. I play until the count tanks and move on. I am constantly on the move. Problem is, I never really get a chance for a high count because the pen is so bad.

I wish I new how many unseen cards are in the front of a CSM that are in front of the shuffling process.

I like to be seated while working :-).Of course with average rules it would be the only way not to come out negative against a CSM.
When the house edge is more than 0.2%, I just wouldn't play against the machine. Wonging or not, the positive situations would simply be too rare.

Francis Salmon

Actually, I find playable situations on about 1 of every 5 tables when I count up the cards on the felt from other players on CSM play. In other words, I'm finding a +1 or better count to play at on 1 of every 5 tables. I can quickly check 5 tables in about 3 minutes. I never sit at a CSM. It would ruin my cover. I look like a major table hopper. I hit and go, hit and go. I play not more than 3 hands. By then the count is probably shot to hell anyway. The only way I would stay is if the count continues to rise substancially.

As for regular 6D, I find myself never playing if the count tanks to -2. Why do that if I could table hop and plop a minimum bet in the middle of a shoe at the count of zero? At least it has better return than griding at -2 until the end. Though I would rather back count some other tables util I find my proper Wong-in point of +1.

I just cannot stand putting and $ on the table if the count is below +1. I will do anything short of bringing myself attention from the pit or the eye, in order to not play a negative EV.

Wonging might be a sport but card counting is a profession.
Why are you worried about cover on CSMs? The mere fact of playing the machines is enough cover in itself.Apart from that I doubt that table hopping can be considered as a form of cover.On the contrary,the main motive for ploppies to table hop - to avoid the shuffle breaks - has now been eliminated. Conclusion for the pit boss: The table hopper is much more likely to be an AP.
There is also a technical drawback of table hopping on CSMs.By counting only the cards on the felt you deprive yourself of the information about the cards which are already in the tray.In my view, 1 favorable situation in 5 is not enough to justify playing on a CSM. You have to keep in mind that your edge will rarely rise over 0.5% which puts you at a clear disadvantage compared to hand dealt games. There is also less reason to leave a table that has just seen some high cards since these cards will be back in the machine in short notice.
Of course I see the main benefit of your technique which is to avoid negative rounds but you can have that also by merely staying at a table back counting. Your undivided concentration would allow you to take full advantage of that table.If you still cannot be without switching tables, I would do this only when refeeding of the machine at the new table has just taken place.

Francis Salmon

to re-input the cards from the previous round right after the cards from the current round have been dealt. This allows for the cards from the previous round to be backed up in case of a patron dispute.

This would imply that the machine is refed after each round which is of course not very favorable to the player.However, leaving more than one round of cards in the tray would still allow checking in case of a dispute.But a compelling consequence of what you say is that all the cards would have to go to the discard tray before they go back to the machine.
I guess this is just internal casino regulation. Or does it have force of law?

Francis Salmon

My point about "cover" being possibly compromised is; if I sit and then I get up and leave after playing between 1 - 3 hands, it would sooner or later be a question in their minds. If I stand, hit and go, it is not so noticable. It's just "table hopping".

I only begin to count up the cards on the felt if no cards are in the tray.

The CSM casino which I have played, uses only 4 decks. I often back-count TC's of +1 before jumping in. I even see TC's getting as high as +4 before I feel the discards are possibly coming out in the deal again.

Is a policy. Whether it be to put them back in after every round or N rounds, or whatever. But leaving it an open-decision made by the dealer certainly invites abuse by the casinos. And I can guarantee you they know about the idea...