Playing BJ as an Investment

I see playing BJ as an investment from day one. I keep on reading about counters viewing BJ as gambling like the post below about progression. I like to discuss my point and why it is important. Hopefully our fellow counters can tell me whether I am right or wrong.

What is invetment? What is gambling? Both are placing money on uncertainty, you may lose buying stocks, you may win Jakpots playing slot machines. I distinguish these two from EV standpoint. I consider BJ an investment because counters have positive EV.

Treating BJ as an investment is very important, I believe. I was bankrupted "playing" stock market, borrowed a bankroll, won money paying my debt. Many experts advised against playing BJ with borrowed funds. I saw no reason not borrowing to "invest" on a good investment such as BJ which has higher return and lower risk than borrowings. I also invet BJ efficiently as I treat any invetment projects. I travelled finding and playing good games. Admittedly you need enough skills and experiences for bigger bankroll but look yourselves and ask:
Are you invest more money on stocks than on BJ? If you are, are you a better stock picker than a counter? Stock market is quite efficient while BJ "market" is inefficient which means BJ is a better investment even for pure counting. I read many red chippers grew to green chipper in years. I bet gold chips after about 100 hours of play. I don't understand why it takes so long learning such simple skill. Tell me why?

What is invetment? What is gambling?

I know that many card counters prefer to say they are not gambling when they play blackjack, but I see it as both an investment and gambling. It is gambling in the sense that you are placing bets on the outcome of a game, and that outcome is not certain, although you should win money in the long run.

I read many red chippers grew to green chipper in years. I bet gold chips after about 100 hours of play. I don't understand why it takes so long learning such simple skill. Tell me why?

I took your question as asking why people don't progress from red chip to higher levels more rapidly. I don't believe it is necessarily a matter of skill. Betting more doesn't make one a better player, in the sense of the raw skills needed to play blackjack. There are no doubt plenty of red chippers who possess the necessary technical skills.

Why don't they progress to higher betting levels? Probably for numerous reasons. Here are a few I can think of:

1. They don't have the bankroll and they have moved more to the left than to the right of the bell curve;

2. They don't want to take the risk they assume exists at higher betting levels;

3. They are casual players who are in it just as much for its entertainment value as they are for the money;

4. They spend their winnings on other things, keeping their bankroll static;

5. They are looking for longevity and want to fly under the radar instead of betting large enough amounts to draw unwanted attention from the pit.

These are just a few of the possible reasons people may not progress to higher betting levels. I am sure there are more. Their legitimacy is really in the eyes of the beholder. We are all motivated by different things and who's to say which is right and which is wrong?

Treat BJ as gambling, you get the result of gambling... losing, or not winning enough. I can't stress more the importance of CCs' sttitude toward BJ. Treat it as an invstment, you are more likeky getting the result of good investments... winning. Using small bankroll is the result of treating BJ inferior against other investments. Many counters using laughable small bankroll which generate small return at low risk of ruin which mean wasting their valuable time. I believe most CCs use a bankroll much much much smaller than their regular investments on funds and stocks which have inferior return and higher risk. I can understand many CCs use cc leisurely, no right or wrong about that. I want to tell those who are serious about making good money from BJ to treat BJ seriously. Don't use small bankroll then complaining about ruin or low hourly rate!

I know of a professional gambler who lost a fortune in the stock market before he became a full time blackjack player. But I also heard that there are professional BJ-ers turned to the stock market because the stock market is apparently a much bigger casino. So it's hard to conclude which one is superior. One drawback of BJ is that you may be barred from the casinos even if you have enough bankroll while you'll never get barred from stock market. So there is a risk of losing BJ as your profession even if you are good at it.

There are over 3,000 casinos in the world. One can always find casinos to play equipped with proper skills such as shuffle tracking and card steering. You seemed thought of only playing in the US while there are more casinos abroad and they are less experienced in handling APs. I can say this cause I played over 500 casinos, about 70% abroad America. I played ES, trackings, cuttings etc. making over $50,000 this year while been barred only from one casino.

There is a limit as to how much a team or solo player can put to use at blackjack (constraints like table maxes limits useful bankroll). There are no such limits in the market.

I don't think there's anything wrong with treating blackjack as a business, card-counting as a lifestyle or AP as a profession.

However.

I do take issue with those who behave in a condescending fashion to those of us that do it sometimes, once a week, or just for "fun." Some people prefer the "sure thing" of a bi-weekly paycheck plus benefits to the uncertainty of gambling, even when done so in a professional fashion.

I know plenty of people that are highly skilled APs that don't make it their "profession." Small bankroll and fun with the game do not always equate to an unskilled player. Period.

There are always exceptional people in each field. Congratulations for your successful BJ career. You have a lot to teach the rest of us from your knowledge and experience. Specifically, do you disguise? Ken Ulston used to disguise himself with short hair, long hair, with or without mustache, with or without glasses, etc.
BTW, are you Mr. D, the best BJ player from Taiwan? I overheard Mr. D's interview in the car radio last year.

We are not talking here about having a secure paycheck and THEN choosing which is the best option. BJTraveller is a professional. He lives from his investment and has no paycheck. He used to be in the financial world, so he knows which is better.
A semi-retired (at 38) ex-Merril Lynch (London) high level stock broker told me he is lucky if he gets 7% return on this investments. He spends 2-3 hours working every day, and lives from his stock income, and some consulting work to a few customers.
Let's say you have $300,000 (he has much more than that), and NO PAYCHECK.....7% will gross you $21,000 a year, not very much..... Invest it in blackjack, man! you could double your money in 6 months, but then you would be barred everywhere....say let's play at Half kelly, use some cover (pros play at less risk than that), and conservatively make 100% return on ivestment $300,000 a year (work long hours.....and seek many destinations), minus about $100,000 in expenses.....Which investment would you rather choose? Note that you have a clear advantage in BJ in a relatively short time statistically. This is not so certain in stocks: while stocks over time will grow, living form them is not a good investment. Stocks are only a good investment, if you are not dedicating much time to them, have a full time job, and don't know what else to do with the money that can give you a better return. Or maybe you have millions already, but then who needs to play blackjack and long hours in that case?

For most of us mortals, we prefer the security of a bi-weekly paycheck, dabble a little in stocks, dabble a little in Black-jack. Until you become a pro like BJTraveller and others, and are willing to be the best at what you do, let's just continue to dabble in Blackjack and not challenge the advice of the pros.

I am Mr. D. I believe I have enough good games allow playing burning style until year 2100 thus I don't do much disguise. Shuffle tracking then play big off-the-top is good disguise already. I once wore fake mustache at a casino and was caught, decided not doing disguise anymore, travel to different casinos instead.

for affending players with enough skills and small bankroll. I wrote in aggressive fashion hopping to arouse some discussions and thinkings. I read this board on daily basis from the boring life of "inveting" in BJ. I read many whinnings from CCs in this and other boards who seemed wanting to make serious money from BJ while treaing BJ as gambling or lucky draw wanting to make millions from very small bankroll. There is no right or wrong using what size of bankroll. I wish to emphasize to those who are serious about making money from BJ getting serious money to the game, don't dream of making $100 an hour from pocket money then complain about the fluctuations, games deteriorations etc. American games did deteriorated significantly for the past several years. Don't complain about dying of BJ advantage plays, don't play Las Vegas, play real BJ at less experienced countries. You don't have to treat BJ serious and use as small bankroll as you like, have fun. If you want serious return from it, "invest" serious money, travel to BJ paradises, stop complaining!

My point is most people use bankroll much much much lower than casinos allow and they can afford or should allocate to a good investment like BJ.

I think the misunderstanding stems from the word "investment". An investment is usually viewed as passive, whereas BJ is active. It's a trade requiring full time dedication to making money. If you stop playing BJ, you stop winning, whereas stocks continue to work for you. It's like choosing self-employment, and in that view to invest in BJ is better than investing in any other business, as the return on investment is extremely high, no inventory needed, and it will produce results in a very short time. It may not be your primary business, maybe a part-time job. For some, it is their primary job, but it's definitely not for everybody. Long hours, stress, exposure to toxins in the casino environment, temptations, and back-offs. But nothing beats the sensation of a good winning session....

to calrify I don't know whether I am the best BJ player from Taiwan though. A good player, yes.

Perhaps BJ is more like day trade. On the other hand, BJ is an investment in the sense it is a very short term investment. It may take years investing in a venture while it takes minutes in BJ. You analyze a shoe of BJ just like analye a project. You decide to invest into a project or a stock based on the data yopu collect and your analysis. You count the dealt cards (data collected) and analyze them with counting system then yopu bet (invest).

BJTraveller, Thank you for this post. Very timely for me. I need your help. I'll give you my scenario and then ask a few questions at the end. I have often believed I bet too small, even for my bankroll. I follow Wong's advice of dividing my bankroll by 50 to calculate my max bet. So, this weekend, I had $1,700, giving me a $40 max bet. I would actually spread to two hands of $40 at times. I usually spread red from about 1 to 8, sometimes 2 hands at $25. I have more winning sessions than losing. I'm not at the professional level but consider myself an AP and could be strong with some work. My trip wins are usually up to a few hundred to $500 dollars. My losses are normally less than $300. Everything I read tells me I don't have the bankroll to bet bigger. For the first time in 15 years of occasional play I met someone with similar interest and a decent understanding of the game (even my best friends don't know I CC. They wouldn't understand and I don't feel like explaining. I'm sure they don't CC, so I really haven't met other CC.). I'm hoping to combine our bankrolls and even stretch them a bit (maybe by "borrowing") and do some team play. Right now, we're limited to just a couple of casinos and will have to be cautious. My hope is to start with a $5K bankroll and double it. I believe this would take about 20 - 30 hours of actual AP. First question, is the 20 - 30 hours realistic? This would give us the ability to branch out and travel to some other places. Is Wong's spread advice too conservative? He has plenty of data and experience to be credible. What would you suggest as a good size bankroll to get serious about? Would you recommend pairing up with someone? If I have a $2K to $5K bankroll, access to a good game with good penetration and some dealer mistakes, what type of spread would you recommend? Please elaborate and provide some reading resources.

of partners is your consideration of teaming with others. I use two Kelly on my earlier days taking higher risks. I now use a quarter Kelly (as the result of bigger bankroll...: ). You can wong in and out more with small bankroll. The spread depends on how big you can get away with. I spread up several hundred times hit and run travelling. I consider BJ as a good investment and borrowed my bankroll before even from credit card. I knew the risk I was taking and was skillful and lucky of not been ruined. You are the only person can judge the risk level you can take.

Where can I learn more about proper bankroll and bt size? I'll check my books re Kelly, but do you have more info on this? When you say hit and run travelling, is this wonging?