Forgive me if this is an amature question for one new to using perfect basic strategy....does penetration of a deck matter if one is NOT a card counter? Does it affect play?
If a cut card is used rather than a set number of rounds dealt, you will find the packs dealt deeper (more rounds) in negative counts, and shuffled away sooner in positive counts. This hurts all players, including someone using only basic strategy.
However, the fewer hands per hour caused by early shuffling partially compensates for it. The fewer hands per hour, the less the basic strategist will lose.
I always complain about too much shuffling when I'm loosing. I tell the D that he/she is ruining the "flow of the cards" + I did'nt come to watch the D give me "shuffle the cards" lessons.
If I decide for whatever reason to leave, I will again let the D know that I am leaving because I'm tired of sitting there watching him/her shuffle so much.
This is something we should all do when the pen is bad, we're loosing and we are going to leave anyway. If the casinos decide that they are loosing some customers, especially losers, they will stop shuffling so much and get more hands per hour on the table.
Stealth Bomber
Donna:
If you ever bet more $ just after seeing a lot of bad cards on the last round, you are a card counter. Bad cards are small cards. You too should be concerned about pen.
Stealth Bomber & others: Ah, yes, I see. So I guess I'm partially a counter. Okay, so here goes...since penetration matters, what is good penetration? Is penetration when the dealer has a player insert the yellow card anywhere into the deck, or is it something else the house does? (I'm probably making you veterans choke with laughter.)
Donna,
After the dealer shuffles, she offers the pack with a yellow (or sometimes red, depending on where you're playing) card on top for one of the players to cut. After the cut, the dealer takes all the cards on top of the yellow card and places them on the bottom of the pack. She then inserts the yellow card into the pack: this is what determines the penetration.
Usually penetration is expressed in one of three ways: (1) percentage, (2) decks in front of the cut card (usually for four or more deck games), or (3) decks behind the cut card (usually for single and double deck games). (1) For percentage, the penetration is defined as the percent of the entire pack that is dealt before the yellow card comes out. Thus, 75% penetration on a six-deck game means that the yellow card comes out just as the dealer deals the 0.75*6*52 = 234th card. (2) For decks in front of the cut card, the penetration is defined as the total number of decks dealt before the cut card appears. Thus, the above example would be termed a penetration of 4.5/6. (3) For decks behind the cut card, the penetration is listed as the number of decks remaining in the pack when the cut card appears. Thus, the above example has a penetration of 1.5. This last style is used in Current Blackjack News, available from this website.
Of course, you have no doubt figured out that these last two definitions of penetration conflict with one another. Thus, you have to use a bit of common sense when you read "penetration" values.
Hope this helps!
Dog Hand
Thank you, Dog Hand. You people are so good!
Donna, you said:
(I'm probably making you veterans choke with laughter.)
First, don't worry about what anybody thinks, says or does in the world of BJ, especially while you're at the table. You have to look out for yourself. Everyone is somewhere on the scale from beginner to absolute perfection. We were all beginners in the past. I'm also sure that no one will ever master the game to absolute perfection. Even Tiger Woods has a lot he can improve upon with his golf game.
Long years ago, BJ had 100% pen with single deck. All cards were dealt before the D shuffled. Even if only part of the players received only one card.
The higher the pen % is, the greater the count will become pefected as the cards are dealt.
So when are you going to jump on board and learn to keep a running count?
Stealth Bomber
For some time now, it has been my habit to buy in at a table, place the cut card and after I watch the dealer move the cut card to the middle or near middle of the decks, proceed to gather my buy-in, while expressing my displeasure by saying, "No Action. I just know I can find a better game than this sucker somewhere else, even if it's poker." After a while they can't help but get the message.
I have wanted to do the same, many times. But my take on it in that method is that they will just assume I am a counter.
I have been trying a different technique; ON 6D, I wait until the D makes the move to shuffle, then I whine about it just like a superstitious ploppy. I might say something like: "Oh no! Shuffle already? Your ruining the mojo and flow here" or "Man, I came to play some cards, not watch you shuffle every 5 minutes. Why are you shuffling so often? Come-on, let's have some cards here so we can play". If the pen doesn't get any better, I show them my distaste and say; "Man, I'm tired of sitting here watching you shuffle so much. I just want to play. I gotta go, ..... see ya."
Stealth Bomber
While penetration doesn't seriously affect the overall house advantage over basic strategy players, there is one effect worth mentioning. A basic strategy player should seek out the slowest game possible. You want to earn comps at the lowest possible cost to you. By selecting a game with poor penetration, you are assured of getting fewer hands per hour, meaning less cost per hour for you. This costs the casinos a lot of money, in terms of fewer hands played and more comps given per hand of play, but they have made that choice, letting paranoia over counters overcome common sense. As a basic strategy player, you should take maximum advantage of their foolishness.
Counters want to go as deep into the deck as possible because that's where their best information is for playing decisions. In fact most counters would like to wait until the last hand before placing a bet. Whereas non-counters or BS players are playing to the statistical results of the game. So, it doesn't matter if one or 20 hands are dealt before the shuffle unless the dealer is counting and shuffling everytime the deck is rich in high cards, because he's interferring with the natural results of the game. Poor penetration means we're all wasting our time watching the dealer shuffle.
