PC complains of me not tipping

I bought in for more than a tylpical amount, played for about 45 minutes and was up about 6 units. It looked as if I was doing better than was actual. PC mention that I should start taking care of my dealer with some tipping. I got mad, grabbed my chips without coloring up and told the PC that; "It is your fault that the dealer will get nothing because of your whining." I then said, "Tips don't happen until I'm sure that I'm leaving with more than I sarted with. Because of your pussy-assed whining, you get nothing. Maybe you need to beg to your employer for a raise."

Wasn't a place that I want to frequent anyway.

my favorite "tipping" story...

was playing once on the MS coast (pre-Katrina) and the dealer was pretty snotty about people not tipping. Eventually everyone left but me, and she said something like "guess I'm not going to get a tip from anybody at _this_ table, so I'm going to speed the game up..."

Point 1, "this table" just had me and her, so either she was complaining about her not tipping herself, or she was complaining about me. I assumed the latter and did not offer any tip at all...

Point 2, she started dealing incredibly quickly. I assume she intended to fluster me so that I would make poor playing decisions. I regularly practice using CVBJ and can easily play 600 rounds an hour without any trouble, so I simply "ate her up" and had a significantly bigger win than I would normally see. As I left, she said "any tip for me?" I responded, "sure, don't be so damned rude to the players and you might get a toke here and there" and left, asking her "is that as fast as you can deal?". :)

Here's why: 1. After I tip them, usually $5.00, before they deal the round, they'll slap the table in front of a player they like. After I just tipped, they have the nerve to route for someone else!!! Dealers should be impartial and not show blatant favoritism.
2. They don't wait for signals. If you have soft 19 or 20 or two tens, they'll just pass you by without your giving a signal because it never occurs to them that some people double or split those numbers. If you have a total under 10 points, they don't wait they just hit you anyway. How hard is it for them to wait on a signal? It's their job and it's not that hard. If you ask them to wait on your signals they'll give you the evil eye or say something snotty.
3. If you make any move contrary to basic strategy, like hitting a stiff hand against 2-6 when the deck is negative, they'll snicker because they think you're stupid or they'll point out that they've got a 5 or 6, as if you're blind and can't see. Most dealers, like the players, beleive in the whole "order of the cards" nonsense and think anyone who's not playing basic strategy is going to make the table lose. Where these Einsteins get that idea from I don't know because it's certainly not in any book I've read. They give you the cold shoulder if you're not playing basic 100 % of the time. I play Spanish 21 sometimes and play Mike Shakelford's composition dependant strategy. If you want to see a dealer's true colors see how they treat a SP21 player who hits alot.Tips. I'd like to tip some of them of the face of the earth.
4. Calling out "checks play"
5. Having an attitude if they have to explain a game's rules to a player.
Dealers are only good for two things: going on breaks, and collecting tips. If they're not doing one of those two things, they're not happy.
Pit Critters are only good for two things: walking around in suits with their hands behind their backs like they just got arrested, and collecting paychecks for basically doing nothing.

Take for instance; hitting soft 18 against 9,10 or ace. Doubling soft 18 against 3 - 6. Splitting 4/4 against 5 or 6 on 6D. Doubling soft 19 against 5 or 6 on SD. Hitting 12 against 2 or 3. Splitting 9/9 anytime.

They seem to have their own basic strategy which is not really "basic strategy" at all.

Dealers have learned what they think is the right way to play blackjack from the exact same people that they take money from everyday in the casinos.
Some of the very distinct plays of this ploppy basic strategy are to stay with all soft 18's, never split your nine's, and do not hit 12 vs 3. They seem split on hitting 16 vs 7-A and hitting 12 vs 2, as if all of these are kind of borderline.

So just like the secretive bomber, I get called greedy if my split of 9's or double of soft 18 results in negative variance, but never a word is said (except to call me lucky sometimes) when I land up winning. Hit a soft 18 and get a 3 or even a 5 followed by an 8 and people just shake their heads in amazment.

Recently had a hand where a school marm look alike compulsive gambler game me a lecture on how bad of a "team player" I was. Of course, she is correct. I would be a better team player if any of my, so called, teammates on the table ever covered my losses. What happened was I split 9's vs a dealer 6, while the other players were all staying on stiffs. I land up with 4 nines plus a double down and a 19-21 on each hand. The dealer turns 16 and pulls an ace, so everyone loses and I win 5 bets.
Within her lecture was her point that I had already had a "perfectly good" 18 and was just greedy. I not so humbly admitted to being greedy and that when the dealer is showing something like a 6, I will get more money on the felt if I can. About 3 hands later I double A,8 against a dealer 5, win the hand and she storms off shaking her head, saying loud enough for everyone to hear, "worst blackjack player in the world." I could only hope the pit agreed with her.
Of course the dealer kept complimenting me on my nice run, which translated into English means, toke me, toke me toke me.

Just making more friends on the blackjack tables.

Dealers think they're experts just because they deal the game. All dealers know is how to deal the game and basic strategy. That's it. That's as far as their knowledge goes, but just because they're dealing, most players think they're experts.
To a dealer, all card counting is, is raising your bets. It never occurs to these geniuses that varying your play to the count is also a part of counting.
In response to what ihate17 said about ploppy basic strategy, it's all true because I've observed it also. Sometimes I'll do some of those moves as camoflauge.
It also bothers me when I hear people at the table talking about the table being a team, and dealers agreeing.If blackjack were a team sport, there'd be one big circle for everyone to put their money on. There's not. It's every man for himself. Dealers are not going to bust all of the time. A good portion of the time they'll have a hand totaling 17-A/10 and it's my job to make sure MY hand beats theirs. I couldn't care less if other people win or lose. It's not my buisness.
What Stealth Bomber said earlier about being ridiculed for playing basic strategy I've also experienced. One time I was sitting at a table with Asian players playing against an Asian dealer. When I hit my soft 18 against a 10 the dealer and players gasped and snickered, then started talking about me in their language! Nothing against Asians, they're brilliant, smart people, just not the ones at that table. My hero Ken Uston was half Asian so I'm just giving an example.
Here's some more reasons why some dealers don't deserve tips:
1.dealing like they're in the Indie 500. When I come across those Quick Rick dealers, I don't tip.
2.Dealing as slow as a snail.
3.Closing insurance in the blink of an eye.

That's it for now.

Greetings ihate17
I've been reading your posts on bj.com and here on bj21.com regularly and have gained much insight and knowledge from what you've written. I'm new to bj as of 2 weeks ago. However, some of what you've said on the "ploppy" thread has me confused. Hope you don't mind me writing but study these sites as I have, I still sometimes find quick speech and nomenclature throw me. On the "ploppy basic strategy" thread you wrote:

"Some of the very distinct plays of this ploppy basic strategy are to stay with all soft 18's, never split your nine's, and do not hit 12 vs 3. They seem split on hitting 16 vs 7-A and hitting 12 vs 2, as if all of these are kind of borderline."

I get the first part (split 9s and always hit 12 vs 3) completely; its just BS at work. As for the rest of the paragraph;
I understand there are variations/exceptions to BS, but when would you hit your hand of A7 (soft 18)? a negative count? And... you write:
"They seem split (you mean 'undecided' yes?) on hitting 16 vs 7-A"
Do I infer you to mean that you might (under the right circumstances) hit a 16 to a dealer's up card of Ace, with a "possible" hole card of 7?

Sorry for having to ask, but this threw me.

regards, mitch

I will give it a try

By ploppy basic strategy, I did not mean playing the way we play, or playing with any indices or even playing proper basic strategy.

I was trying to point out how the better than average ploppy may play, or at least the ones I see and that these are the players that most dealers have copied in their way of thinking how the game should be played.

The first thing is that these people think 18 is a good hand and should not be played with. So they do not hit or double on soft 18, nor do they split 9,9.

Then they seem to know to hit 12-15 vs dealer 7-A, but (remember they do not count) often will not hit a 16 vs a 7 or higher card. Many have learned (certainly not all) to hit 12 vs 2 but nearly none of them will hit 12 vs 3.

So I am not infering on how you or I would play, I am just observing how the above average ploppy plays, but I think you thought I was writing about counters?

I believe that when ihate17 referred to "7-A," it was a reference to hitting a 16 against a dealer upcard of 7 through Ace, not a soft 18. In other words, basic strategy is to hit a 16 when the dealer has an upcard of 7,8,9,10 or Ace. Many ploppies won't hit a 16 in those circumstances.

I'm sure ihate17 can correct me if I'm wrong.

All dealers know is how to deal the game and basic strategy.

Based on the dealers I've seen over the years, I don't think most of them know basic strategy. They commonly advise players to take even money, to stand on 12 v. 3, to not split 8s versus 10s or Aces, not to double on 11 v. 10, and other such common basic strategy plays. Some dealers know basic, but my experience leads me to believe they are in the minority.

Now that I think about it, I've also seen dealers tell players to stand on 12 vs. 2-3, and just last night at my table the dealer was telling someone to not risk splitting 8's against a 10.

Here's something else that happened last night that's happened plenty of times before that makes my blood boil. Some guy at the table wasn't playing basic strategy and after the guy left what do you think the dealer did? What most dealers do: started talking bad about the guy with the other players at the table. Dealers need to learn how to act in a professional manner and talking negatively about a player after they've left just because you happen to disagree with their style of play is NOT professional. Dealers will at least wait until the person leaves to start talking about them which is more than I can say for the Kinda, Sorta Basic Strategy player who will be verbally abusive to you right to your face if you're not playing their version of basic strategy.

I'm with you now. Additionally I was confusing myself thinking when you (and others) write "7-A" you were somehow guessing the dealer had an ace as a hole card to an up 7 when all your doing with that "dash" is saying "7 TO A". Sometimes its little things that throw you. I'm very new to all this lingo. When making and using my flash cards, I'm used to seeing that dash in my soft 18 hand!

thanks for the help,

mitch

Perhaps in the future, just to insure things do not get misunderstood, I will write 7 thru Ace. And perhaps I will forget.

I _love_ fast dealers. More hands per hour only increases your hourly win rate, which is a good thing...

High speed dealing can turn a mediocre game in to an excellent one. More payoff errors as well.

"PC mention that I should start taking care of my dealer with some tipping. I got mad,"

I never had the pit bitching, but I definitely had a dealer doing some. The girl was right in my face too. I gave her an unprecedented toke due to my winnings just to shut her up. It worked - for her.

D

Super fast dealers aren't dealing fast to help counters, they're doing it to try and throw your game off, and also to get noticed by their superiors as someone who takes in more money per hour for the house so maybe they can get promoted. I practice on Casino Verite and set it to the fastest dealer setting the computer allows so when I come across the Quick Ricks and Fast Fionas, they're not a problem for me because I'm trained to go up against these people.

I firmly beleive that taking a payoff error is stealing. The money accidently given doesn't belong to me, it belongs to the house and as much as I hate casinos for harrassing people who use their brains, I won't stoop to their level and steal from them. I go to casinos to make money using my brain. If I didn't legally win it I don't want it. If I only had one penny left in my pocket, I would not take a payoff error. What other counters do is up to them but as for myself, all of those superhero cartoons I use to watch when I was little definately made an impact on my personal ethics in regards to stealing. Would Spider-Man take a payoff errror? No.

You _ARE_ using your brain, if you are careful enough to point out dealer errors that cost you money, but do not point out the ones that make you money...

That takes additional skill above and beyond counting, to keep up with both counting, proper betting, _and_ making sure you are never shorted on a payout...

It is required, by casinos, of the dealers.

"Super fast dealers aren't dealing fast to help counters, they're doing it to try and throw your game off, and also to get noticed by their superiors as someone who takes in more money per hour for the house so maybe they can get promoted."

In your first example, a dealer is trying to throw you off your game and cause you to make mistakes. This is a malicious practice intended to cost you money. Why would you give them the money back when this strategy backfires causing a mispay? If this same dealer exposes a card (more likely in this scenario), do you make use of this information? What would be the ethical distinction.

Spiderman has been known to give the villains a smack every now and then.