pair of 8's

pair of 8's

I am a novice counter returning to play after a couple of years. I am using casino vertite software to practice.
My question is I am using a high /low count the correct order of decision is surrender, split, double, hit/stand when I surrender a pair of 8's against a ten casino vertite says it is the wrong play.
My question is when you have a pair of 8's (16)against a ten is this an exception to the rule do you split or is casino vertite wrong.
I know this is a silly question but I honestly do not remember this being an issue in my past experiences and though I need a little practice to ready myself I remember everything but this perfectly

Split

BS is to split, not surrender. What count are you using? If Hi-Lo and NDAS, surrender at TC >= +1. If DAS, use TC >= +2.

Don

Question for Don

Some say splitting 8's against a dealers upcard of Ace is a sucker play. What do you think? Thanks!

Some?

You need to stop thinking like this. "Some" say lots of stupid things. There are dozens of reliable sources for basic strategy on the web. Here is one of the best:

https://www.blackjackinfo.com/blackjack-basic-strategy-engine/

Just do what it says. Period. No discussion necessary. There are no "opinions" about basic strategy; we already know all that there is to know about it. A play is either right or it's wrong. Simple as that.

Don

Dude!

Don-
You might want to check your blood sugar!

Fine

My blood sugar is fine. I'll make sure to answer future questions you may ask.

Oh, and by the way, you're welcome.

Don

Surrender 88 against 10 when

ES.

Hi Don

Whilst we are on the subject of BS, I have been reviewing a book by Dario De Toffoli and Margherita Bonaldi, BJ A Champion's guide.  I have played him at Backgammon in the Olympiad and I have read your book in my study, kitchen and car. 

They have number crunched all the basic strategy decisions and some differences include not splitting 6's, 2's or 3's against dealer's 2.  If you have read his book what do you think of it?

 

 

I haven't read the book, but the differences in pair splitting probably have to do with whether or not doubling after splitting is permitted.

Sorry for the delay in answering.  I missed some posts with the new forum format.

Don

Hi Don

Re:  A, A v A split or hit?

I really appreciate your reply and it is quite an experience for me to be communicating with on a topic.  Call it hero worship perhaps, but nevertheless I will always go to the great fonts of BJ knowledge.
OK lets go a bit deeper with this, I have read his book and I would like to have asked him a number of questions directly but there are no contact details unfortunately.
His matrix is for European Rules which they are at pains to warn the readers that in some cases the strategy may be different according to the rules of a casino. Their BS refers specifically to BJ with 6D, European No Hole Card (dealers card is dealt last), S17, no DD permitted after a split..  His interpretation is at variance with the more conventional BS matrix that I am using.

For 2,2 v 2, they advise hit with expectation of -0.11 (Split -0.15)
For 2,2 v 3, they advise hit with expectation of -0.08 (Split -0.10)
For 3,3 v 2, they advise hit with expectation of -0.14 (Split -0.20)
For 3,3 v 3, they advise hit with expectation of -0.11 (Split -0.14)
For 4,4 v 5, they advise hit with expectation of -0.07 (Split -0.02)
For 4,4 v 6, they advise hit with expectation of -0.11 (Split -0.02)
For 6,6 v 2, they advise hit with expectation of -0.25 (Split -0.28)
For 8,8 v 10, they advise hit with expectation of -0.58 (Split -0.62)
For 8,8 v ACE, they advise hit with expectation of -0.67(Split -0.89)

I am agreeing with them for the 8,8 play versus the ACE and against a 10 perhaps a DAS will facilitate that 8,8 v 10 is a split.  .  Now, maths is maths, and using Markov Chains has allowed them to automate the calculations.  Their Basic Strategy has been developed using Probability Theory.  They state BJ is completely mechanical and is a game that is resolved by mathematics anything else is quite simply wrong. 
They advise to split the above if there is DAS and the mathematical expectation are a little better.  However, and a big one.  I use to split A, A v Ace but  2 FT Pros (shockingly decent players) told me that for UK don't split them.  I simply hit them now  So, why is Toffoli advising the split?  Maths is maths.

For completeness, I am playing, 6D, ENHC, S17, DAS, Unlimited resplits , DBls on every card.  No surrender with a house advantage -0.55% although in another thread here I have calculated it to be closes to -0.36% dues to DBL on every card as opposed to DBL on 9,10 and 11 only.

BTW I like your Floating Point Advantage explanation (BJA3).

Kindest regards

O

"I really appreciate your reply and it is quite an experience for me to be communicating with [you] on a topic.  Call it hero worship perhaps, but nevertheless I will always go to the great fonts of BJ knowledge.

"OK let's go a bit deeper with this, I have read his book and I would like to have asked him a number of questions directly but there are no contact details unfortunately.

"His matrix is for European Rules which they are at pains to warn the readers that in some cases the strategy may be different according to the rules of a casino. Their BS refers specifically to BJ with 6D, European No Hole Card (dealers card is dealt last), S17, no DD permitted after a split."

As I suspected.  Understand, also, that ENHC isn't just that the dealer doesn't take a hole card, but also that all splits and doubles are lost to a subsequent dealer natural.  That's the important part.  Otherwise, taking the hole card last wouldn't matter.

"His interpretation is at variance with the more conventional BS matrix that I am using."

For 2,2 v 2, they advise hit with expectation of -0.11 (Split -0.15)
For 2,2 v 3, they advise hit with expectation of -0.08 (Split -0.10)
For 3,3 v 2, they advise hit with expectation of -0.14 (Split -0.20)
For 3,3 v 3, they advise hit with expectation of -0.11 (Split -0.14)
For 4,4 v 5, they advise hit with expectation of -0.07 (Split -0.02)
For 4,4 v 6, they advise hit with expectation of -0.11 (Split -0.02)
For 6,6 v 2, they advise hit with expectation of -0.25 (Split -0.28)
For 8,8 v 10, they advise hit with expectation of -0.58 (Split -0.62)
For 8,8 v ACE, they advise hit with expectation of -0.67(Split -0.89)

"I am agreeing with them for the 8,8 play versus the ACE and against a 10 perhaps a DAS will facilitate that 8,8 v 10 is a split.

No, it isn't.  When you can lose all to a dealer natural, you don't split any pair vs. dealer's 10 or ace with the exception of splitting A,A vs. 10.

"Now, maths is maths, and using Markov Chains has allowed them to automate the calculations.  Their Basic Strategy has been developed using Probability Theory.  They state BJ is completely mechanical and is a game that is resolved by mathematics, and anything else is quite simply wrong."

Well, that's true.

"They advise to split the above if there is DAS and the mathematical expectation are a little better."

Correct for everything but the 8,8.  Not correct to split if ENHC.

"However, and a big one.  I used to split A, A v Ace but  2 FT Pros (shockingly decent players) told me that for UK don't split them.  I simply hit them now  So, why is Toffoli advising the split?  Maths is maths."

I can never put myself in some other author's shoes and tell you what he/she is thinking.  I can only tell you what the right play is.  And, for BS vs. ENHC, you can find the correct pair splits at the bottom of p. 490 of BJA3.

"For completeness, I am playing, 6D, ENHC, S17, DAS, Unlimited resplits , DBls on every card.  No surrender with a house advantage -0.55%"

I make it -0.51%, from pp. 492-493.

"although in another thread here I have calculated it to be closes to -0.36% due to DBL on every card as opposed to DBL on 9,10 and 11 only."

No. DAS brings -0.54% to -0.40%, but ENHC costs another 0.11%.

"BTW I like your Floating Point Advantage explanation (BJA3)."

Thanks.  That was a big project.  Glad you enjoyed.

Don