Optimal bets(optimal ramp) and bet spread

Hi!
In "Blackjack Attack" Don Schlesinger speaks about SCORE and when he refers to KO tables(different penetrations) the highest bet spread example is 1-12.My question is (if it is possible without being backed off) whether a higher bet spread(1-20,combined with optimal bets(optimal bet ramp)gives better SCORE and if there is some limit for bigger bet spreads.The conditions are:6D,S17,DAS,DA2,LS,ENHC,Pen 75%,KO full,no wonging
A friend of mine calculated with these conditions c-SCORE 20.17 and ROR= 13.3%,DI=4.49 using 1-20 bet spread.As I have read that SCORE must be around 50 to have a really good game I wonder(when no wonging is applied) that this must be really difficult in 6D games(which I mostly play).I would like to hear your opinions about(considering optimal betting ramp,and no wonging)what is the bet spread(although the higher risk of being backed off)you would advise.One last thing:I prefer aggressive bet spread,but that ROR is not bigger than 15%(which is quite high,I know).Thanks in advance.

Your maxbet depends on your capacity to take short term or medium term losses (materially or psychologically).The maxbet shouldn't exceed a twentieth of your trip bankroll or 1/100 of your total bankroll.
Once you have determined your maxbet, the spread is given by the table minimum.In Europe there is usually no heat problem with a 1:30 spread.If you cannot get at least 1:20 you should resort to wonging one way or another.
By the way,how can you have late surrender without a hole card?

Francis Salmon

It's the minimum playable game that our group currently allows players to play. A "Good" game would be, IMHO, a game with a SCORE of $75 or better. $50-$75 is merely playable. A Great game would be a SCORE of $100 or better.

Does the casino allow you to wong-in/out at will? If so, play only positive counts. If tables are crowded (common in Europe) do they allow you to backbet on other players hands? If so, simply stand behind the table and bet only when you have an advantage. (be sure the player does not use a non-standard basic strategy). If you backline/backbet be sure to ask if you have the option of not going along with all splits (if so you get an edge by not having to make certain defensive splits).

Otherwise, you simply need to spread bigger or wong out/table hop more aggressively to get your SCORE up. That said, I just looked at CVCX for no hole card game HiLo using all indexes and got a SCORE of $48.41 for s17 ds ls shoe game with 75% pen play-all 1-20 spread. I also get a SCORE of $50.14 for a 1-8 spread sitting out all hands with a HiLo true count of -1 or worse. (better to change tables).

Hi!
Having in mind the conditions(6D,S17,DAS,DA2,LS,ENHC,PEN 75%)I quess that a big bet spread is needed(minimum a 1-20 spread ),or wonging is the way.From your answers I deducted that games with SCORE(benchmark)50 are acceptable,but if SCORE is below better not to waste time.I agree that in Europe bigger bet spreads are possible(well,the sessions must not be long),but wnenever there are conditions for wonging it is an excellent choice.There are a very few places where you can surrender against any dealer's card(great places,mainly in Russia),but almost everywhere I play you can not surrender against a dealer's Ace.I have put it as a late surrender,but as Francis Salmon rightly asked it is a kind of another type of surrender(no hole card is applied,remember).I would like to hear your opinions about this Surrender compared with the typical late Surrender when there is a hole card.Just to know if I am wrong when I calculate it as late surrender for my tables.Thanks n advance.

Hi!
Thanks for your great information.I see it is very hard to find 6D games(S17,DAS,DA2,ENHC,LS,play all)that could have such c-SCORE(as you speak of 75).Even a greater than 75% pen(which is difficult,to say the least,to find)needs a big spread(1-20 won't be sufficient,1-30 is badly needed)and a solid bankroll.One obviously should wong to get such a good c-SCORE.I thought that having c-SCORE of 50 is good,but you find it only acceptable,so it brings a lot of realism in my understanding.Basically you recommend back-counting and playing only positive situations as the only way to fight 6 deckers,thanks for the good advice.

Hi!
Sometimes the European casinos allow to wong in/out,but in some places it is simply not possible,so the only way is to try a big spread(1-20 as a minimum)in order to play a game which is on the limit of "acceptable"(considering the c-SCORE).

Your game is much better than you think,the rule is called ES10 (early surrender against 10) and is worth 0.25%,so your disadvantage is probably only 0.2% off the top.No need to wong such a game, the score is excellent anyway.
Under such good conditions you might encounter heat so be more careful with your spread.Good luck!

Francis Salmon

Hi!
You are right,but this rule is only mentioned in "Blackbelt in Blackjack"(less common rules,+0.24%,page 115) and I never have seen it in other books(but it can be found in CV(V4)).Do you think that changes a little some index numbers(KO full) for Surrender?Your opinion is that SCORE(benchmark) of 50 is a good game,is that right?Thanks a lot,best wishes!

I think that a game with only -0.25% off the top and dealt to 75% is far better than benchmark and you shouldn't worry about score.
I'm not a KO-expert but the indexes do change drastically compared to LS.You must use early surrender numbers!I don't know whether such numbers exist for KO.
Note that due to the exceptional rules you can attack much earlier.Break-even point is already at TC+0.5.
KO is probably not the best system to exploit these conditions because it doesn't give you any control over the advantage situation.A balanced count,e.g. hilo, would do a much better job here and Wong's PBJ could provide the proper strategy numbers.

Francis Salmon

Hi!
I am used to KO,it is very easy for me and I appreciate its strong point to tell me very precisely the exact moment for maximum betting.Being a 6D game KO is not so bad choice and no mistakes at TC are possible.Also being easy to apply you have a lot more time to pretend you are the usual gambler.As for the index numbers(for KO full) you are right,some changes must be made(and as I know too much books about KO indices are available).Thanks,your messages had always been of great help to me,best wishes!

Hi!
I meant a very few books fo KO are available(I would like to se more good ones on KO),sorry!Best wishes

If you use the same key count as for benchmark rules you will miss out on many advantage situations.Also,with a pen of 4.5/6 or worse you won't see many counts of +4 or more (assuming IRC-20).So I advise you,if you really want to stick with KO, to place your maxbet at any positive count.However,it is almost impossible to indicate a single key count when to start raising your bets.At the beginning of the shoe, you will have the edge at -15 already but late in the shoe -5 means disadvantage.May be Roger Harris can help you here.He is really an expert in this field.He might also be able to tell you something about Early surrender strategy numbers for KO.

Francis Salmon

Hi!
Being an amateur,I prefer to stick to KO system.Yes,you are right that with 75% pen you are still at disadvantage at RC=-5(first advantage at RC=-3),but the idea of maximum betting at any positive RC,seems like an overbetting to me(although the very small percentage of situations with RC= 4 and more).I am very interested in your words about the situation in the beginning of the shoe(that at RC= -15 you have some advantage(very small),but when I have asked about such details that interested me nobody answered(neither Mr.Vancura).I do not know Mr.Roger Harris(only remember his words about the progressionist author Mateson,he was completely right in my opinion),but I would like to comunicate with him and hear his opinion.I do not know how to contact with him,so any help would be welcome.About ES10,ENHC ,I think only the indices of 15 vs 10 and 14 vs 10 are different(KO full)and they must go down(Mr.Wattenberger's opinion),which seems logical.No other index changes are neded in my opinion.Thanks for your concern and great help,best wishes!

Hi!
I am sorry,I gave a wrong name.The review written by Mr.Roger Harris was about Walter Thomason(not Mateson as I wrongly wrote)and his book "21 Century Blackjack"(progression system).I apologize,it was not due to a lack of respect ,but to a memory lapse.

see Roger Harris' posting ("EZ-TKO") dated 22 Nov 2005 on these pages concerning a simple method to ensure True Count accuracy at your key count...

With a play-all style and mediocre pen you have to be more agressive and I remember you saying that you wanted to play with a 15%-ROR.With these rules and pen,an RC of +1 will give you an advantage of over 1% at any point in the shoe,and if you respect my guidelines for determining maxbet (not more than 1% of your total bankroll)you'll be just fine.
As far as ES-indices are concerned,you don't need the one for 15v10,just surrender always (hilo equivalent is TC-3)and 14v10 should also be surrendered at any neutral or positive count (TC=0),difficult to handle with KO.An important index however is 13v10 (TC+3),same as insurance index.

Francis Salmon

Hi!
Thanks,but I do not know how can I see previous posting(from November 2005),so it is not possible for me to see what Roger Harris had wrote(I would like to do that very much).Best wishes!

Hi!
When I considered ES10 as LS,I had (at RC=1) an advantage of 0.87% and using 1-20 spread the optimal bet was around 14 units(not too far from maximum bet).So,you say that having ES 10 will put me at RC=1(and mediocre pen) with an advantage of slightly more than 1%(when max. bet is not more than 1% of total bankroll),well it sounds good to me.About Surrender index number for 13 vs 10,there is no such when KO full is used(LS),so I doubt that with ES10 this index number will be of any significance(it will be quite negative).Your help is incredible and I apreciate very much your advices and opinions,the only thing I could not find any information(till now) is about Roger Harris and his articles(or thoughts) concerning KO.Best wishes and thanks again!

To tell the truth I don't know how to link directly to the post. At the top of this page there is a search feature you can use to find it.