number of players

How many other players its best to sit together with?
If there are many players, betting based on count becomes a bit dodgy. Say the count is +4 and you make your big bet, then the dealer starts spitting out all the 10's to other players and by the time he starts getting some himself, the count can well be negative! Which screws up my bet completely.

On the other hand, its much easier to wong with many players and they provide nice cover-up. Last week I went to casino and was playing next to these three completely drunk fellows who did a fantastic job at attracting all the attention - they'd place bets then completely forget about them and the annoyed dealer would remind them to play their hand, then they'd knock over the chips all over the place, sing aloud, spill beer, etc... In the meanwhile I was doing 1-30 betting spreads while the pit dudes were too busy trying to calm those 3 down. Walked away with a cool $1200 profit. When you play alone all the eyes are on you.

So, whats people's opinions on optimum ploppy-count at the table?

The number of players has no significant effect on per hand EV unless you are playing in a single deck game. In single deckers, there is an effect on EV. It is best to play single deck with no more than 3 players at the table. Based on a set of sims I did some time ago, the most advantageous configuration in a rule of six game is when two players or two hands are being played.

The prime consideration in multiple deck games is game speed. The more players you have at the table, the fewer hands per hour you will be able to play. While per-hand EV doesn't change to any significant degree, your per hour EV does change. Ideally, you would want a heads-up game, discounting possible heat considerations.

Don't worry about the count getting lower after your bet is made. You are making your bet based on the information you have at the time and you have the advantage your count says you have. You would make adjustments for playing strategy. For example, let's say you have a running count of plus 10 in hi-lo at the start of the hand in a six-deck game. Two decks remain in play, so you have a TC of +5. You are at third base. The four players to your right score with a bunch of 20's and the RC plumments to +2. You draw an 6 and a 4 for a 10 and now the RC is +4. The dealer flips an ace up and the RC lowers to +3. Your TC is now less than 2 (actually it's 1.68). You now know two things. You know you shouldn't take insurance and you know you shouldn't double your 10 against the ace. However, you still have exactly the same chance of winning that hand as you had at the beginning of the hand prior to the deal. The configuration of the cards is what it is. Because you saw the other cards coming out, you also have the additional advantage of making your playing decisions based on the current count. Don't sweat it.

Bootlegger:

Don't worry about the count getting lower after your bet is made. You are making your bet based on the information you have at the time and you have the advantage your count says you have. You would make adjustments for playing strategy.

D21 :

You are correct about adjusting playing strategy as-you-go. But as Stanford pointed out in his book, playing decisions make little difference, its correct betting that really rolls the money in. The whole point of counting is to predict when the dealer will go bust on those extra 10's that are in the pack, right? If the count goes down by the time dealer starts drawing cards to himself, he wont go bust any more and you lost your advantage and bet.

If you are alone at the table, there is not so much room for a stuff up. You might go from +4 to +3 at worst, and the dealer will go bust as expected. But with other 5 players at the table, you can go from +4 to 0, and the dealer will not go bust. You could argue that he could also spit out a whole lot of 5's and make the count even better, but this is LESS likely to happen because there are more 10's in the pack than low cards at + counts.

I havent got simulation software yet, but logic suggests to me that if you run a simulation, you'll find that, at positive counts, the average difference between (TrueCount_at_betting_time - TrueCount_at_dealer_getting_cards_time) will increase proportionally to the number of players at the table. How much will this influence the winning rates, I am not sure, but it should.

...that the number of players at the table in multiple deck games has no significant effect on your per-hand EV. The sims have already been run.

It is true that other ploppies can take big cards during + counts. If you were to look at a sim only when there were plus counts you might find that # of players change EV. But with more ploppies at a table they help eat small cards during a negative count.

after a large number of hands:
TrueCount_at_betting_time - TrueCount_at_dealer_getting_cards_time=0

I reached a different result... Each player significantly lowers your EV, because it reduces your effective penetration. Consider a typical "end-shoe attack" where the TC hits +3 with 50 cards left to play. You only raise bets after winning a hand.

With head-head, you use about 5.8 cards per hand, allowing about 8-9 hands before a shufflt. With 3 players, you may get 4-5 hands before a shuffle. If you were already at 2 units, you'd be lucky to hit a max bet of 8 units after 4 hands. With one player, you'd likely hit max bet after 4 hands, and get 4 more of max-bets.

If you run a sim with a full table at an 8-1 spread, you barely have a positive EV. Of course, with more peope at your table, it's easier to "cheat" by raising your bet when you don't win.

Daringly

Re-read my post. I am talking about mulitiple deckers. I assume you are talking about single deckers.

I understand what you are saying in your post but it really just reaffirms what I said. Lets say you have a -3 count, same conditions as your above post, and you've already left the table twice to piss, twice to get a drink, and once to talk the pretty blonde. I don't know about you but I would be glad at this point that I am not the only one on the table. If you can walk away from a table at anytime without worrying about the pit then the fewer ploppies, the better. Actually, when you look at the long run I suppose EV is going to be a lot better with fewer players simply because of hands/hr. Ok my conclusion is to ignore my previous post. Give me less ploppies. I don't like their bitching about my play anyway.

No, I'm referring to multi decks (most of my sims focus on 6-deck).
If you are stuck playing at a table with more than one other person, you have to abandon a little of your cover to maintain a decent edge. If you are willing to double your bets even after losing, playing with 2-4 people isn't so bad.

I din't notice that you were talking about the end of the shoe. If you find a six-deck game that deals down to less than 50 cards and then deals several rounds after that, let me know about it because I want to play that game. I don't think you will find one, but you never know. :-)

I should have clarified. 50 cards left to play before reaching the cut-card.

Just a question for you to consider. When you reach that last 50 cards before the cut card comes out and you have a high count, who ate all the little cards to get to the high count? Either you ate them as a solo player, or you shared in the misery with your tablemates. In the end, it all comes out in the wash.

Yes, the same is true for negative counts. BUT,
I am wonging out at -2, so it doesnt matter for me if count goes from -7 to -3, but if it goes from +5 to +2, it hurts. I think the simulations Bootlegger is referring to are "play-all", with no wonging.

SotSog:

after a large number of hands:
TrueCount_at_betting_time - TrueCount_at_dealer_getting_cards_time=0

D21:

If you include both positive and negative counts and add them up - yes, you are correct.

But for POSITIVE COUNTS ONLY, TrueCount_at_betting_time - TrueCount_at_dealer_getting_cards_time > 0 - think about it, there are more 10's in the deck, so there is a higher chance of those 10's being delt out.

And positive counts is what really matters - lion's share of your money is made at TC +2.

But for POSITIVE COUNTS ONLY, TrueCount_at_betting_time - TrueCount_at_dealer_getting_cards_time > 0 - think about it, there are more 10's in the deck, so there is a higher chance of those 10's being delt out.

Yes, there's a higher chance of higher cards being dealt at plus counts. (Thank heavens!) That's why the RUNNING count tends to go down. But the TRUE count, on average, remains constant. High and low cards -- on average -- come out in proportion to the true count. Do a search for "True Count theorem," on www.bjmath.com.

Your question has been asked and answered hundreds of times on this board. You are getting the very best advice from some of the top experts in the world (SOTSOG and Bootlegger). Listen up! ;-)

ETF

Forgot about the decreasing running count. Duuuh.

Thanks a lot for clarification, bjmath.com gives a pretty convincing demo.

I'm no expert. That isn't false modesty. It's true. But thank you very much for the compliment.

This is one of those questions that pops up every couple of months on this and other message boards, over and over.

To say that it has been extensively researched, not to mention simulated to death would be a huge understatement.

The answer doesn't change. :-)