Ceasar Indiana has changed the rules on double deck games to prohibit doubling on soft hands. doubling is only allowed onhard 9, 10, 11. How much of a disadvantage is this. would I be better of to play the six deck skoe games that allow doublin on soft hands
D9,10,11-{-.08) and 2 decks vs 6 is a little over-.20.Willi.
Mainly due to the ploppies. On one occasion, the count was -3. I had $200 on 2 hands, got a stiff 14 and 9 vs dealer 9. I stood on the 4 and doubled on the 9 giving me 19.
The ploppy had 10 and he DOUBLED!!!! Caught a 7.
dealer draws a 4 then a 3 and 5 to make 21.
If only the ploppy can hit he could have caught the 4 and made 21.
The whole night people were making stupid plays, doubling on Ace 7 and 8's, hitting 14's and 15's. splitting 6's and 7's.
Needless to say I was down $4,800.
How can I ever win at this game with so many bad players at the same table! Mays well just play Roulette.
Any help welcome.
The D9 game shaves .14 off the edge for BS and would seemingly shave
even more than that for counters given Don's D10 analogy on BJA pg. 181.
Spok
doesn't hurt basic strategy players all that much (although they really hate not being able to double). There is really not that much gain for soft doubles. It does cost counters quite a bit more since soft doubles become more valuable in high counts. It also hurts the casino (probably more than it hurts counters) since most civilian players are way too aggressive (or not aggressive enough) with their soft doubles (doubling A2 vs 2 for example and not doubling A7 vs 5) which are expensive errors to the player which the casino could be taking full advantage of.
I cringe when I read messages like this because I truly wonder if the question is for real or it's just to get people riled up and start a flame war. Giving you the benefit of the doubt. Pardon me for not being George.
First off the comment about it being the ploppy's fault is completely misguided. It makes no difference what anyone else does as far as you are concerned. Your decision to hit or stand is based on all the available information as your turn comes into play. Yes, the player next to you might draw when he or she shouldn't and cause the dealer to make their hand, but (and this is important) the odds are just as high that they could've drawn the card that caused the dealer to bust and effectively "saved the table." You only need to be concerned with playing your hand correctly in relation to the count.
Looking at the scenario you described, because you say the dealer drew a 4, 3, 5 to make 21 I am *assuming* when you say the dealer had 9, you meant the dealer had 9 total. In other words they may have had a 6 showing with 3 underneath or something similar. Without knowing for sure what the dealer was showing I can't help you on this particular play. I can say, however, you shouldn't be betting above minimum when the count is in the negative and you definitely shouldn't be playing two hands.
That said, even if you play perfectly you can run into a buzz saw. I was playing double deck with great pen and had my ass handed to me tonight. The dealer was showing 5's and 6's and even with sky-high counts she couldn't bust to save her life. Every time I split - lost. Every time I doubled - lost. It happens. The last time I played I won. The best I can do is walk away before I get frustrated and start making mistakes... knowing I played strategy perfectly, indices and all, and over the long run the winners will make up for tonight's losing session.
Hope this helps,
Derek
Even if the ploppie hadn't doubled on his 10 (and was able to draw another card)why would you expect him to hit his hand after he drew the 7? Did he know the next card was going to be a 4? Even a ploppie knows to stand on 17.
You're touching on something I've believed for a long time, B.P., and something I think many casino owners are missing the boat on big time.
As a prelude, I don't think what I'm about to say applies as much in Reno/Vegas, due to the higher density of advantage players in those cities. That said, however...
I believe, from years of player observation and a keen awareness of if/when/how-good a counter is playing at a table with me, that when a casino limits soft-doubles and hard-doubles on 8 and/or 9, that it ends up hurting the casino in the aggregate.
The reason for softies you already touched on... as a counter's count runs excessively above or below an index threshhold, the increase in the advantage of making the correct play on softies up to A7 occurs on a very gradual slope in comparison to that of a hard double. The reason is because the bigger cards that can hurt the dealer's weak up-cards if drawn work against the player since small cards would help such softies. With hard doubles, big cards both help the player and hurt the dealer so the slope of advantage is much steeper as the count is higher (Don, 'DD and others have a mathmatical term for this "count elasticity" but I can't remember what they call it).
By dis-allowing softies, the house is: 1) Preventing idiots from executing ill-advised softies and.. 2) Preventing players from playing the table due to the rule (by my observation, soft-doubles are the least understood plays by folks who know basic strategy 95% efficiently but they WANT to soft-double and are repulsed by not being able to). When contrasting these 2 points with the "in-elastic" magnitude of advantage afforded the relatively few card-counters of the world, it's clear to me that the house essentially hurts themselves by dis-allowing softies.
By the same token, I often see middling players double a hard 9 against a dealer's 7 or 8 and ploppies sometimes doing it suicidal against 9 or better. When combined with the occasional non-counter who won't play D9 (or especially D10) if anything else (like a DOA shoe) is available, I think the effect of these tightened rules more than compensate for what it gains from the rare counter.
I DON'T believe this to be true for DAS or LS. I think these rules provide more for counters/B.S. players than it takes from ploppies or those who won't play due to these rules.
Spok
Elasticities of return, with true count changes, is probably a better phrase to use than what the clones originally had anyway. The counter gains little over the basic strategist with soft doubling allowed, while the ploppie misplays this option more. Hard doubles have high elasticity of return, like a baseball off a bat, while soft doubles have low elasticity of return, like a softball off of a foam finger.
It has become apparent that among the very helpful and knowledgable contributors to these pages, there lurks a strange assortment of characters who obviously live out there fantasies whilst hiding behind the anonmity the internet provides. Some of these people are easy to identify whilst a proportion are very very shrewd. I personally have exchanged several e/mails before realising the person I was corresponding with was a fraud. The reason for this post is to forwarn those that may be taken in and prevent valuable time being wasted.I am not pointing a specific finger, however if the cap fits then feel free to wear it. Goodbye.
p.s. Read between the lines!
You're right,I saw it in a book the other day -.07 or 08 for multideck and -.14 for double.Willi
Think that was a bad movie based on book about golf by Dan Jenkins.
