New Player and Poster

Hey yall, I've been a reader of the site for awhile and a student of blackjack on and off for a couple of years, but this is my first post (hopefully more will come and perhaps someday I can contribute). I am an occasional casino player (I'm a student with little free time and less money), but mostly counting cards is a hobby simply because it gives me something to practice and it is something of a challenge. I've read a few books on the game and done some research and from what I've read I'm fairly satisfied with a level one system, and really want to have something I can use and enjoy with minimal fatigue and still maybe make a little profit. The heart of my issue is that I know two systems- I learned hi-lo several years ago when I first started learning to count but never practiced much and never really used it and I recently learned and started using K-O and have become pretty ok with it I think (I count down a deck in 20-25 seconds usually and I know the prefered index).

I've seen all of the math and know the two systems are mathematically quite even, but I'd love some input on which to choose from more experienced players. I have no real objections to expending a little extra effort to switch (this mostly an academic exercise after all) if its worth it. The unbalanced count idea feels strangely uncomfortable and I feel like I can't really backcount as effectively with it, but its super simple to keep up with and I'm already moderately versed in it. Hi-Lo adds the extra element of TC conversion (which I'm sure I could learn, but its something else to practice), but it seems clearer and perhaps better for backcounting if I can learn to be accurate with my TC estimations.

I suppose overall I'm satisfied with K-O so far, but I know there are many doubters out there who seem to know more than me. I would love some input about which route to take from some more experienced players. Thanks in advance to the help and dealing with my rambling first post!

Both systems are good. If you are comfortable with either one, stick with it.

I chose to use HiLo for 6 deck games because I too didn't like KO for backcounting or wonging out. Instead of dividing the obtain the TC, I set set threshold levels based on the number of remaining decks. For example, if there are 4 decks remaining, the TC is 1, 2, 3, ... if the the RC is higher than 4, 8, 12, .... Another problem I have with using KO for 6 decks is that the count frequently gets into the 20's or higher (IRC=0). Numbers like twenty-seven have too many syllables and slow down my counting.

For 1 or 2 deck, where I wouldn't be wonging in or out, TC is more volatile, and the count rarely into the 20's, I use KO.

If you like KO, you may consider reading the Color of Blackjack (sold here). It has a practical approach using KO on shoes. You may also consider learning about reKO which, if you can believe it, further simplifies KO without a significant loss in effectiveness.

I suppose overall I'm satisfied with K-O so far, but I know there are many doubters out there who seem to know more than me. I would love some input about which route to take from some more experienced players. Thanks in advance to the help and dealing with my rambling first post!

Who are the doubters and how experienced are they? First off, KO is a fine count to use. I've been using it since 2004 and it gets the money. ANY and I mean any reputable count system will get the money. The extra 5% or so you may get with a level 2 count, etc., has to be weighed against the fatigue it brings and the number of errors you may make as a result of the more complex system.

Personally, since you learned both, I'd leave it at that. Hi-Lo is a great system that can be used for a wide assortment of games and if you're fine with true-counting keep using it. KO has some variations besides just true counting it. I'd highly recommend a book called "The Color of Blackjack" by Daniel Dravot. He's taken KO to another level. The book can be purchased here on BJ21, just drop an email to Al Rogers.

All in all, you're doing fine as a hobby. As your hobby gets more serious you must expand your education beyond a "few" books and read them all! I have a bookcase of six shelves overfilled with nothing but AP books. My ottoman is completely filled, as well. I've read every single one and many I have read more than once.

Then, I suggest you join Green Chip and get a load of more information from the archives section of the board. Any questions you have, Al will help and always walk you through any problems.

Good luck and keep us posted on your future AP play.

Regards,
PM

Read your post after I made my post. Seems we both agree that the Color of Blackjack is superb for KO.

Regards,
PM

Thanks for the advice! I've been playing around with both K-O and Hi-Lo. I was actually shocked to see my count time improve noticeably with Hi-Lo (which I hadn't really used much). I had never really thought much about what Rick said before, but its absolutely true- saying smaller numbers with fewer syllables actually makes a real difference. I'm trying to log some good practice time (both at home counting and at a terrible terrible local casino) before my first trip to Vegas next month. I would greatly appreciate any advice on what I should read next. So far I have read K-O, Blackjack: Play like the pros, and Blackjack Blueprint. I don't mind fairly technical reading and I'd rather avoid reading too many redundant books on the exact same topics- oh and bonus points if the book comes with a kindle edition. Other than that I'd certainly appreciate some guidance.

As I mentioned, in about a month I'll be making my first ever voyage to Vegas. I'll certainly post more specific questions later on, but any advice on prepping myself for the visit now is also certainly appreciated. Thanks again for all the help yall!

I'd recommend, "The Card Counter's Guide to Casino Surveillance" by Cellini. This book has been around awhile, is out of print and last I heard was selling for approximately $150-$200.

Now, why do I recommend this book? Cellini was one of the most knowledgeable surveillance people in Vegas and well respected for years. Cellini was also a counter that understood that APs weren't crooks, just smart players using their brains and he didn't hold that against them. In his book, written for both surveillance people and card counters, he begins to enlighten all as to what a card counter looks like, how to identify them, and explains things that will allow the player to understand when things are are not going well for him from the pit/eye in the sky. Many other things are discussed that really helps players understand what's really going on from the other side. Besides just playing the game in the casino, the player has to understand these other factors that can get him booted or 86'd...this book will do that. The price tag is a little hefty, but is a book that should be in every APs library, IMO.

There are many other good books, but you asked for a recommendation that is not about the standard concepts of counting being said a different way. This book is definitely not one of them.

Good luck on your journey and like I said earlier, keep us posted now and then.

Regards,
PM

Your post piqued my interest. I remembered this book mentioned previously. Found a used one on Amazon.com for $180 and searched GBC. When I called, Mary said it was back in print and I bought it for $50. Now I hope you don't tell me it has all the good stuff deleted. :)

Regards, LR

I'd recommend you pounce on that before they quit printing again. :) Seriously, I'm sure it's the original book, which is not very big but what's available inside is worth many, many more times the amount you pay for it.

There are a 'few' AP books that come along that every AP needs to have and eat up. This is one of those books.

I actually bought my first one when it first came out in 2004 and got to know Cellini through a mutual AP friend before he died. He sent me an autographed copy with a nice message that I cherish and will never sell. I did sell the first one I bought for about $80 but that was in 2005.

Regards,
PM