K I have yet to test my skills inside a casino but I'm curious as to what the average success rate is. Does anybody in here make a comfortable living strictly off of counting cards.
I am a veteran (12 yrs.] professional player who lives quite comfortably.
I gave up a professional career with middle 5 figure earnings in 1992.
There are, at the most, 200 Pro players extant in the U S A
There are perhaps 1,000 times that amount of amateur Card Counters who have taken up an engaging pastime which permits them to break even or extract a minimum wage equivalent from their hobby
The vast majority of prospective Card Counters will either not be up to the task of intense study and endless practice, will be emotionally attached to money, be under-capitalized, or bored by the fact that playing BJ on a skilled level takes all of the "GAMBLE" out of the game - rendering it highly boring after a few hundred hours.
Most persons of my acquaintance are simply emotionally unable to accept the real possibility of being "broke" and living a (partially) "secret life"
I hate having to uses aliases and altering my appearance, etc. Wouldn't you ?
"Life on the road" is not exactly rewarding either.
Flash is correct but missed one category: there are plenty of "casual" amateur AP's who do far better than minimum wage.
They (we) certainly don't put the hours in like the pros do, but our hourly EV is comparable to that of many professionals, and is quite a bit better than minimum wage. Most of us don't play often enough for the game (in the grand scheme) to get too boring.
But there are droves of people who try it without adequate practice or capital, and end up losing quite a bit of $$.
FLASH- if you don't mind me asking, about how much do you make a year and also how often do you play. I'm not worried about the long practice and intense study involved, I have been practicing hours and hours every day for the past 6 months. I strive for perfection and have no problem putting as much effort as needed, if not more. I'm just curious if all of this work is going to pay off. I want to live more than comfortably, I want to be able to spend and spend with no worries.
I want to live more than comfortably, I want to be able to spend and spend with no worries.
How does going on a 12 months losing streak sound? That will happen eventually. If you spent and spent the money you made during the good years, you will fail during the lean ones.
Firstly, Panama Rick, in this thread, is correct.
Although I have never had a losing year, I have had losing streaks where I have lost money continuously over a period of several moths.
That is a mathematical reality that is part and parcel of the game itself. A game where a Card Counter will average perhaps 1% advantage over the long run. An advantage like that is the same as randomly picking a red bean out of a jar with 1000 red beans and 999 black beans.
I am collecting Social Security benefits.
I have NO debts and no NEED for money.
I have a SIX figure bankroll.
I average playing 700-800 hrs. per year
I average earnings of over $50/hr.
That is a tax-free net win of about $40,000/yr.
[minus some traveling expenses].
The internet and movies and books are loaded with people making claims of how rich they have gotten simply by counting cards.
I am probably at the 96th percentile or better in terms of earnings.
Those who claim gloriously high earnings are either referring to
playing BJ several decades ago OR they are liars. Sometimes both are true.
I seriously doubt that I will go on a losing streak for a year. Maybe you are choosing the wrong games to play in or maybe you just aren't the pro that you think you are. Just because I am money motivated does not mean that I cannot master this game. In fact, it gives me the drive and motivation to work towards perfection in every aspect of the game. I do understand that losses happen and I plan to make sure that I keep a big enough bank to recover from these losses but at the same time I am going to spend my profit. I don't plan to hold on to every dollar I earn in fear of going on some crazy losing streak that, quite frankly, should never happen unless multiple mistakes are being made. Whether these are playing mistakes or mistakes in choosing a game with rules that allow you to have an advantage.
Firstly, let me say that JohnDoe's post is also correct.
Secondly I need to mention that "brooklyn" is probably not a good "fit" to be a Professional player, as Panama Rick opined.
Then again very few are.
It is a VERY "hard way to make an easy living"
It takes "steel nerves" and a lot of sacrifice, discipline and patience.
It is NOT the Goose that Lays Golden Eggs.
Most Pro players merely grind out a living, as I do.
Romantic notions generated by movies and books are fictional.
I would like to know how you were able to conduct a complete analysis of my ability to grow into a pro just by reading a comment I posted about making money.
Again, I do understand that I will hit some losing streaks but I plan to limit how big these losses are by simply walking away after I have lost x amount. Also, I think that is highly unlikely to have a year long losing streak. Like you said I have about a 1% advantage, actually almost a 2% advantage with my counting system. Therefore, with a maximum amount of playing time, the odds of losing every time for a year straight are almost impossible.
Nobody here can make a complete analysis of anyone based on a few posts, but we can pick up an attitude in just a few posts. Call it intuition, experience, whatever, I agree with the others about the prospects for most card counters and for yourself. You may want to look in to poker if you want to make your primary living as a gambler. Assuming you wouldn't cheat at poker, casinos don't care how much you win at poker but they do care how much you win at blackjack. You've come to the right place for experienced players to tell you the real deal about blackjack. I think for most of us it would be our pleasure (maybe that's too strong a word) for you to prove us wrong. Give it a shot and let us know how you're really doing every six months.
Quitting a game after losing X units is folly.
It does nothing to stem losses over the long run; and the "long run" needs to be your focus.
There are reasons for leaving a casino, but none of them have anything to do with losses.
They are, but are not limited to the following, I can no longer concentrate, I am physically exhausted, the table conditions have changed, I am getting too much heat from the pit,, etc.
You reclaim of a 2% advantage rings true ONLY if you are considering what it looks like "on paper"; as real life BJ does not permit you to spread your bets 50-1, split Face Cards, etc.
Every pro knows that 1% is a good benchmark figure.
unfortunately I am only 19 and I do not have any casino experience so to be completely honest I am speaking with a bit of ignorance. However, I have completely mastered the counting part to the game and after hours of play on Casino Verite, I no longer make any mistakes. What exactly tells you that I am not capable of being a pro. Is it the fact that I am money motivated? Because I personally do not see that as a problem.
Focusing on money instead of the game is deadly.
BJ is a money game played with cards. Poker is a people game played with cards.
Both are games first and foremost. Money is merely how we keep score.
One of the similarities between high-level Poker and Blackjack is that successful practitioners of both share an attribute that is quite rare among the general populace.
We are, to a high degree, emotionally unattached to money.
I have had as much as 1/3 million bucks in CASH; and I have also found myself sleeping in $25 North Las Vegas motels full of whores and crackhead parolees.
If you were playing poker and you felt that you had "the best of it" but folded the "All-In" bet to you because losing would have busted you, then you are ill-suited to earn a living at Poker or BJ. As the poker pros say "You haven't enough gamble in you." Of course, if you play no-limit, you do not enter the Card Room without 5 or more "buy-ins" in your pocket.
"Both are games first and foremost. Money is merely how we keep score."
Isn't the score what's really important in evaluating the success of a game.
I do understand that greed will ruin me, especially in playing blackjack. However, in blackjack there is a right and a wrong play for every possible situation. While money is my motive, it is not a factor in making playing decisions.
Let's be honest, this game is played for the money, through anyone's eyes, pro or not. We are not playing to cure cancer or to make any other positive contribution to the world. The only motivation in this game is the money and the appealing lifestyle.
" ... While money is my motive, it is not a factor in making playing
decisions."
Focusing on Playing Decisions is very narrow indeed as those decisions involve one hand. Not the thousand that you will be playing.
A wider focus has to do with the error you are making re: your statement about quitting when losing. Money management" myths abound. An important "wide" focus involves learning what you can about "Risk of Ruin", and how that relates to Bankroll requirements.
It surprises amateurs who want to move up to professional playing that anywhere from 800 to 1,400 units are god ball park requirements, depending on the gaming conditions available.
If you are playing a common (piss poor) Atlantic City 8 deck shoe game where the dealer cuts of 2 decks and Hits Soft 17 you would need 1,400 times $15 as your initial bankroll. $21,000 is a fair piece of change, and a solid fraction of that needs to be (literally) in your pocket when ever you play.
A 6 deck $25 game where the dealer Stands on Soft 17 but still cuts off 2 decks (e.g. Trump Plaza) is a better game - but would you'd be advised to secure 1,000 units to play with - and that is $25,000.
Your chances of surviving, as an aspiring serious player, with just a few thousand dollars is poor. Your chances of doubling your bankroll before going BROKE would be above 40%.
Can you handle a 2 out of 5 chance of busting out ?
You can play at 18 in some casinos e.g. Turning Stone Casino, near Syracuse, NY
If you think that the lifestyle is appealing you have been "taken in" by the media accounts.
It is NOT glamorous. Not at all. It is NOT secure in any sense of the word.
In fact security only exists in the recognition of its non-existenxce.
Most people feel secure in the knowledge that they are on a career path and have a paycheck waiting at the end of the week and that they qualify for Credit Cards and so forth, and that they need not hide what they do for income.
Besides which -- it is important to understand that BJ was a very EASY game to beat 40 yrs. ago. It was still easy 30 yrs. ago. Then things began to change. The game's rules and procedures had changed quite a bit. Technology was being employed by the Surveillance Team behind the cameras. 20 yrs. ago casinos became really greedy and started to ruin the BJ games. 10 yrs. ago BJ went to "Hell in a Hand Basket" NOW ... I fly and drive all over the country seeking out little rural casinos in the boondocks of the MidWest and the Deep South in order to find attractive games that I can milk for awhile.
All pros agree on one thing and that is that there is no future in BJ.
Within another 5 or 10 yrs. the game will be pretty much impossible
to exploit well enough to earn a living.
I know it's not secure and that doesn't worry me. The last thing that I want is a secure 9 to 5 that drives me crazy but ensures security. The secretive and deceptive life of a card counter is appealing to me. The constant battle with the pit bosses fuels me. I see that part as an enjoyable game in itself. However, that is very interesting what you said about blackjack dying out within the next five or ten years because that is something that worried me.
That is a tax-free net win of about $40,000/yr.
How is it tax-free?
