(Message Deleted by Poster)

In the early days, counters had to back count both tens and non-tens and then calculate the ratio. (Fortunately for them, it was all single deck in those days [g]).

So the question:

Using only hi-lo, which is most important?

A) the ratio of high cards to low cards in the undealt portion;

B) the ratio of high cards to ALL cards in the undealt portion; or

C) the ratio of high cards to non-high cards (i.e., 2-9) in the undealt portion?

D) None of the above. In HiLo, you count the difference between the high cards and low cards, not the ratio.

To clarify; let's say there are 52 cards left in a DD shoe, of which 21 are high, 19 are low, and 12 are middles (7-9). For each of the cases above, the ratios would be:

A) 21/19;

B) 21/52; and

C) 21/31.

Yeah, yeah, I know some of these will follow proportionately, but one might be a better indicator than another.

In this case, your running count is +2, as is your true count 2/1=2.

I purposely set it up for RC = TC = +2.

I was asking about the relative significance of the ratios.

a "floating advantage" discussion? That is, if the TC is constant, the advantage changes somewhat depending on the number of remaining cards, even though the TC remains constant.

I'm not an expert on that topic at all, but have heard it mentioned frequently...

For a "hi-lo'er" you are wondering about a fixed number of low and high cards (where we know the ratio of low to high by the TC) and inserting a random number of neutral cards?

My first thought is that more neutral cards are probably worse for us than less neutral cards, even though hi-lo calls them "neutral". If there is a peculiar number of neutrals, such as way too many, that would obviously both reduce the TC if the neutrals are all that are changed. But if you change all the numbers so that the TC remains constant, my first "gut feel" is that it doesn't change anything at all.

But I have more than enough to deal with just counting lows and highs. :) I suppose a higher-level count would account for this more accurately...

Simple answer,since the count is hi-lo, all we care about is hi& lo cards . BUT, the thing that math ratios wouldn't show nor our TC count is the neutrals have an uncalculated negative value in hi-lo.
Since removing 2 (9) have almost the same negative advantage to the player as removing one X. So unremoved neutrals should accumilate higher uncalculated TC than the true TC and visa versa

and I don't understand why you care about these ratios when HiLo is about high card - low cards.

For those that think the nuetral cards are signficant, may I direct you to www.bjmath.com. Click on Table of Contents, then on Effects of Removal. The H17, DOA chart shows the following numbers for single deck:

7: +0.247
8: +0.001
9: -0.182

for a grand total of +0.430 or +0.143 per card. Compare this to the average 2-6 = +0.502 and the average 10-A = -0.550. Sure, if there is an excess of 7's remaining, it is detrimental, but I wouldn't worry about this. If you do want to worry about it, use the KO instead.

Well, not quite because we have an equal chance to remove 2 (7)
and have the opposite effect. The effect of neutral cards are
accounted for in the .5 house advantage and it does not vary
regardless of the count system, be it level 1,2,or 3.