KO Klone

I'm currently using KO but am looking for an even easier counting system to take the drudgery out of the play at Blackjack. Ok... I guess I'm just lazy. Here is my question to the smarter players on this site.

I have read much talk sometime back about the ace-five count but understand it will, at best, be a break even game. I don't like it as it doesn't count any ten value cards which should be important in knowing when you have an edge. So what is everyone's thoughts on this modified, easy, KO Klone:

Count all 10's = -1
Count 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9 and Ace = 0
Count 4's = +2
Count 5's = +3

My idea is to count fewer cards and still discover when to make larger bets, similar to KO Rookie. I know this is a "multi- parameter" count but it seems that it would be easier as you are not even counting half the cards in a deck. And... as a plus, this system would still generate a +4 count per deck like normal KO, so I might could use the KO pivot in making strategy deviations and take insurance at +3.

Anything to trying this? Or am I dreaming? Can anyone run a sim to get the BC, PE, and IC for this count? I suspect it might be better than KO for insurance but less for playing and especially for betting as it does not count the Ace.

Thanks in advance for any help...
quark

Better than Ace-Five but K-O outperforms it by far:

BC = 0.750
IC = 0.633
PE = 0.434

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Cacarulo

First, it's a matter of personal preference, but I say it doesn't matter how few cards have non-zero tags. You still have to watch every card dealt. For me, that takes more effort than addition and subtraction.

Second, the sum of the tags may be the same as KO, but that doesn't guarantee that anything except the pivot point will remain the same. And the advantage at the pivot point will change, too. For instance, if you used an off-the-wall count where 8s and 9s are +1 and 7s are -1, you'd still get a net of +4 per deck, but do you really think the KO indices would have any relevance? Would you have a high IC at ANY count?

Of course, since your count is less zany than the one I just presented, you might find that parts of it turn out to be similar to KO. But the mere fact that there's one more +1 tag than -1 tags doesn't prove anything. You need to do sims.

Finally, off the top of my head I would guess your system is inferior to KO because it doesn't count aces.

There is a reason popular counting systems are popular. A lot of brilliant mathmaticians have been studying blackjack for over 40 years. The reason KO has rapidly become so popular is because it is extremely easy and works as well as most level one systems.

You are not going to find a system that is any easier that works nearly as well.

Instead of wasting time trying different tag values (all of which have been tried many, many times), just buy the KO book (or Hi-lo, or whatever) and get busy.

WoW... Thanks man...

So, since Ace-five has a BC of 0.53 and a PE of 0.05, could I expect to make "half" as much as KO promises?

"There is a reason popular counting systems are popular.
You are not going to find a system that is any easier that works nearly as well."

You are probably right. However... someone probably said the same thing to Vancura and Fuchs prior to KO. And what would have been the reaction to unbalanced counts in general, say in the 70's?

I have bought KO and have it down pretty good. It just seems like there would be "some" count that is easier to implement that achieves "some" advantage. I don't get to casinos often (4-6 times a year) and don't really want to invest the time it would take to become a "serious" counter. But... like everyone else, I hate playing a game that, played long enough, will lose.

I'll get a lot of "heat" here about this, but I go to casinos to a) get out of town, b) have some fun, c) Flirt with the waitress' and drink a few brews! True counters, which I greatly respect, make the game to much like work ! !

I have read your posts here for the last 3-4 months and greatly respect your perspective. Thanks for trying to enlighten me!

quark

"I have bought KO and have it down pretty good. It just seems like there would be "some" count that is easier to implement that achieves "some" advantage. I don't get to casinos often (4-6 times a year) and don't really want to invest the time it would take to become a "serious" counter. "

Use any count you want. The easier the count, the longer you have to play to get the same N0(long run index). Given the short time you play and the easy counts you desire, I don't think having an advantage will make much difference.

"First, it's a matter of personal preference, but I say it doesn't matter how few cards have non-zero tags. You still have to watch every card dealt. For me, that takes more effort than addition and subtraction."

Yeah, the addition and subtraction is pretty elementary. Keeping up with the cards is the hard part. I can easily detect "faces", even without trying, so that would leave only 4's, 5's, and ten's to keep track of. Just a thought (that apparently no one like much). :)

"Would you have a high IC at ANY count?"

Good point ! I hadn't considered that.

"Finally, off the top of my head I would guess your system is inferior to KO because it doesn't count aces."

I don't doubt Ko will out perform, but was looking for a "middle of the road aproach". Thanks...

quark

So, I should just stick to Basic Strategy? Even making small numbers of trips, I hate to think that when I finally reach my deathbed, I will be "down" money playing Blackjack. Guess I'm looking for a long term advantage. Short term ups and downs is what gambling is about, right?

So, since Ace-five has a BC of 0.53 and a PE of 0.05, could I expect to make "half" as much as KO promises?

Maybe but anyway, I think both systems don't make one. If what you want is to use less tags then you can try the following:

 A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  T

-2  0  0  0  0  0  0 -1 -1 -2

 A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  T

 2  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  1  2

Once you get used to KO (alot of practice), it will be as easy as adding up your hand.

You will win money and still A)get out of town B)have alot of fun
and C) Flirt with the waitress and whoever else.
You will, however have to limit the brew intake. With a simple system like KO, and 1 or 2 drinks per hour, for a max of 4 hours, i would say you can easily play with a .5% edge.

First off, KO really is an easy system. With sufficient practice, you can do it on a near-subconscious level. You will be able to talk to other players, dealers and pit bosses, order drinks, and flirt with the cocktail waitresses, all the while maintaining the count.

It is even possible to play/count at one table while back-counting an adjacent table. If the count tanks at the table you are at, and is better at the other one, you can grab your chips and move in the middle of the shoe. This is great cover.

In other words, with sufficient practice, counting becomes no more work than, say, breathing.

However, if you are really averse to counting, try this when you go to Las Vegas. Make sure you have BS down cold. Find a single deck game with a full or nearly full table. Make a small bet on the first round after the shuffle. As the dealer resolves the hands, scan the cards on the table. If you see less than one ten value card/ace per player raise your bet 2x or 3x. If you see one or none, raise it 4x or 5x. Always play basic strategy.

This will give you a small advantage over the house without actually counting cards.

I may try to learn KO and give it a spin, especially in the shoe games. However... I really liked your "non count" strategy!

"Find a single deck game with a full or nearly full table. Make a small bet on the first round after the shuffle. As the dealer resolves the hands, scan the cards on the table. If you see less than one ten value card/ace per player raise your bet 2x or 3x. If you see one or none, raise it 4x or 5x. Always play basic strategy."

I am presuming that I should play single deck because of the better house percentage for the player? What about double-deck games?

I may can handle that. I'm not such a big drinker anymore. Back when I was younger, maybe... I'm not averse to getting a mild buzz (from beer) and then switching to O'Douls or similar. Are non-alcoholic beers available at casinos? I hadn't thought about that. It would pay the casinos NOT to provide them... :)

"I am presuming that I should play single deck because of the better house percentage for the player?"

That's one of the reasons. The other is that the effects of each individual card are more pronounced in the single deck game. With 6 players at the table, you will see on average about a third of the deck on that first round.

This is what makes it effective. It could be used in a double deck game, but it would not be nearly as effective. With 6 players, you could expect to get 4 rounds, so you would have to remember back to the prevous rounds. (". . . well, there aren't many 10's, but a lot came out last round, so maybe I shouldn't raise my bet"). If you could find a game with good rules (S17, DOA, DAS), you might have a small positive expectation. At this stage though, you should really start thinking about learning a simple counting system such as KO, Red 7, or Hi-Lo.

"Are non-alcoholic beers available at casinos? "

You bet. As are bottled water, coffee, tea, and non-alcoholic versions of alcoholic drinks (virgin mary, etc.). Some upscale places will even give you a Red Bull or similar energy drink if you ask for it.

They want to give you whatever it takes to keep you at the table.