Is counting worth it for real low limits?

I have been reading here for a few months. I enjoy Blackjack, and my ex roommate taught me Basic Strategy. I still get hung up on a few soft doubles, and 1 or 2 splits. I still practice, and will be %100 very soon.

When my roommate left, he left behind one of his books called Blackbelt in Blackjack. I started learning the Red Seven (basic) count. It's very simple with only 6 plays to be made at Running Counts of 0 and +2. I mostly play 6 decks in CA and Vegas. My problem is that because of my financial situation (a lifelong debt to repay my med school loans), I can only afford enough bank to play 2-$3 tables. I understand that the best way to beat deck games is to do a wong on them. However, there's only maybe 1 or 2 tables where I can play which makes the wong tough since the tables are always full. So when I find an open seat, im forced to stay there during bad counts. I have also noticed that the count is minus %99 of the time.

It's obvious that what I should do is save up enough to play the $5 tables where I have more tables to choose from. However, that would take me most of the year to do that which would limit my Blackjack trips to going only once per year. And possibly playing scared. Im afraid I would lose interest.

I guess my question the the group is: In my situation, playing low limit tables, is counting really worth it?

Please excuse me if I posted this to the wrong board.

Laura

What you can do is take $200 or $300 to the casino, and count, spreading your bets from $2 to $25. Depending on the rules and how deep they deal, you will have a slight edge (you probably could not afford to tip) but even if you do overtip, you can still have a fun night out with the boys playing virtually a break-even game. If the places you play at gives you some rewards for putting in hours of play, well, all the better.

You only THINK the count is minus 99% of the time. It just seems that way, trust me ;) However, you will only have an advantage in about one out of every three hands, and this will be long streaks of betting the table minimum followed by a string of big hands in a row.

Keep the faith!

M.

You asked if it's worth it. Not if you need or want to make money or earn comps. But if you're going to play, whatever the reason, it is always much better to be playing a game that is in your advantage! Even at a $3 min., you can inflict some damage. If it is SD, you should try and spread $3 - $15 (or 2x$10). This will earn you about $5/hour (give or take a couple $$$) in the long run, if you play well.

First, my conscience compels me to point out that if this is truly all you can afford to bet, you need to ask yourself some searching questions, like "Can I really afford to play at all?"

If you can honestly answer in the affirmative, then I suggest that you skip the CA Indian joints. You need a large spread to beat a shoe with a play-all approach. Even at a $3 table, your max bet needs to be around $40.

Instead, save your money for the visits to Vegas. There, you can head downtown, where you can find $2 min single deck games. You can make money on these with a 1-4 spread, so your max bet need only be $8 or $10.

You won't get rich that way, but over the long run you should be a winner, and you will make enough to at least offset some of the trip expenses.

Wong used as a noun.

"I understand that the best way to beat deck games is to do a wong on them."

This is funny. I like it.

Parker's right Baby Doc. He knows of what he speaks.

JB

Parker wrote:

Instead, save your money for the visits to Vegas. There, you can head downtown, where you can find $2 min single deck games. You can make money on these with a 1-4 spread, so your max bet need only be $8 or $10.

You won't get rich that way, but over the long run you should be a winner, and you will make enough to at least offset some of the trip expenses.

You can offset a non-trivial part of your trip expenses playing BJ for silver chips? Wow. I knew airfares were falling, but I didn't realize that had gotten that low.

What kind of action do you need for RFB at the "B" these days?

"You can offset a non-trivial part of your trip expenses playing BJ for silver chips?"

I didn't say anything about "non-trivial."

However, if our player can only afford to play $2 and $3 tables, then I submit that no expense is small enough to be considered "trivial."

He should make enough to at least cover lunches, assuming that lunch is a bowl of beans & ham at Binion's snack bar. :-)

A different kind of beans each day of the week. You get a good sized bowl and a cornbread muffin for $2.75.

They also frequently have red beans, rice & andouille (sp?) sausage - $3.

Becky finally came to her senses (somewhat) and now one snack bar is again open 24 hours, at least on weekends.

First, you are right in saving up enough to afford $5 tables. None the less, I think you can make it if you enjoy playing bj. At the stakes you are playing, I found blackjack to be a very enjoyable experience as no one hassled me and I could play technically accurate bj with no "heat". Once you have at least $1000 to start with as a bankroll, $2000 is what you should look at as your investment in bj, then start playing SD games exclusively in downtown Vegas and better yet in Mesquite, Pahrump, and Laughlin which have better games and lower limits. Spread $2 to $20 with out any guilt and leave the occasional negative count. Grow your bankroll and try to play as much as you can. Since you are playing for low stakes, I know from excperience that you can play 20 out of the 24 hours a day in downtown Vegas at those stakes, never tip (NEVER TIP), and have no problems outside of a few bad looks (Oh no, they are giving me the evil eye or worse yet the pit boss scowl {I wonder if they go to clown school to learn that one...} ;). If and when you double your bankroll and have $4000 to invest in blackjack, then you can make a semi-serious run at the shoe game and you may have worn your welcome out at the single-deck games. If not, then continue hitting the SD games at higher stakes (say $5-$40). The goal you should have is to grow your bankroll, so while you are trying to grow it, don't take any money out for expenses. Treat expenses as additional investment into the bankroll. Also, you shouldn't have very high expenses since you can drive to Vegas. I found that even without comps (I never gave a last name in downtown Vegas), I could still spend less than $40 for four days of expenses. The more you play the less of your hourly earnings go to expenses. If you don't have the money to play properly, then don't play, period.
One last suggestion I have if you don't have enough money to play properly is to play online. If you know BS cold (they shuffle after every hand), then you can easily grow your bankroll to the right proportions by playing for bonuses online. I think you will find bj much more enjoyable when you tackle it with enough money to not worry about losing on any given day.

Thanks everyone for the outstanding tips. I forgot to mention that making a big profit would be nice, but just coming home with a few extra bucks is enough for me at this point. Anymore advice for being successful in my situation would be great.

Thanks again..

Laura

ps - Not a big fan of ahhhh urrrr ummmm Beans and Ham. However, a football sized cocktail from Mermaids really hits the spot just before bedtime

I can definitely empathize with your situation! I have been to Vegas several times, and my bankroll simply is not enough to afford the large maximum bets necessary to beat most games. So I end up looking for a lot of $2-$3 games, which can be hard to find. Dog gone it, if I could just afford the $5 tables, things would be a lot easier -- because those are very easy to find.

Let me make a couple of suggestions. First, I have found that using casino coupons and promotions can be a fairly quick and easy way for "low-rollers" like us to make money. You can get a good book with a lot of match play coupons (plus deals on shows, food, and attractions) for a $37 online subscribtion to the Las Vegas Advisor. Also, be sure to search through their web site thoroughly for lists of deals and funbooks offered by various casinos. I also recommend a coupon book called "Casino Perks" for the same reasons. Using these coupons is far easier than counting and provides a huge percentage expected value (over 40%) for the limited number of hands you play.

When you run out of coupons and promotions to play, you might try finding $2-$3 single-deck games in the smaller properties (downtown or outlying areas) and spread up to a $10-12 max bet. Another possibility is attacking the shoe games with a backcounting (Wonging) approach. Everything I read says you need a substantial spread to win at shoe games, but if you only play hands when you have the advantage, you should be playing a winning game. Of course, you should go up to a higher bet on those higher counts if your bankroll can tolerate it. But even if you only bet $5 per hand strictly in advantageous situations, you should have at least a small advantage.

For now, the reality for us is that without bigger bankrolls, our average wins may be very small indeed. However, I gather by your post that you're a new doctor just out of med school, so your financial situation should improve in the future (as should mine after I finish my doctorate in finance). When that happens, we should be able to move beyond tiny win rates and play at somewhat higher limits without worrying so much about which casinos offer $2 blackjack. :-)

Good luck at the tables!