Invest or Play?

Is the following deal better for INVESTORS or PLAYERS on a blackjack team?

10 investors putting up $5,000 each
4 counters putting in only their TIME (no money)

50,000 bankroll, breakout at 50% gain (i.e. when it hits 75,000)

$25,000 gain (only, not BR) is shared 50-50 investors-players

12,500 for all investors = $1,250 each, 25% ROI on $5K put in
12,500 for all players = $3,125 each, payment for time spent counting

Rinse, repeat... as long as it holds up.

If at any time the 50K bankroll is wiped out to zero, everyone considers it a "loss" and the team either ends, or perhaps it reforms again with new investment money to try again.

Of course the breakout payments may happen sooner or later, just depends. Could be right away, could be MONTHS in between hitting the 50% target if there are losses/setbacks. Everyone understands this and shares that risk.

Assume all participants are honest (big assumption, I know, but for sake of this question leave possible ripoffs out of it).

So would you rather be an INVESTOR or a PLAYER on this team, and why? And IF you think it's too unfair to one or the other, how would you revise the agreement to make it 50-50 FAIR to both?

from most of the stuff i have read and seen. investors get paid dividens and players get paid an hourly rate plus some bonuses if the whole team is up.

the 50 percent target seems pretty high to me. legend has it that MIT was yeilding 30% annually.
that number is probably off but it seems reasonable for that team.

your system gives a lot of money to the players, even though they do the most work the investors should stand to make the most. this is how any buisness works. restuarants, hotels, start ups.

how much does the casino manager make relative to the casino owner

I am a basic strategy player, currently learning to count but not too good at it yet (I can manage to keep accurate on single deck at El Cortez, LOL, but true count conversion still throws me off dividing by number of decks remaining in a shoe...)

So I am possibly an 'investor' in this deal but possibly counter too. I was asked to look into putting a team together on this basis by a couple other guys who have more money than me, just trying to sort out how it might be done best.

I realize that the investors should get the lion's share, but aren't they already? The way I figure it so far based on "expectation" the counters are earning about $15 per hour while investors get 25% ROI.

From Hourly Win Rate Calculator here: http://www.qfit.com/CVTimeC.htm

$50 unit, 1000 units, target win 500 units (50% gain)

Required number of hands is about 47000, figure 60 per hour for 4 counters is about 195 hours working time per counter... so in the end they're getting about $15/hour.

Or did I not figure that right?

If we make it more lopsided toward investors then the counters will be making less than $15 per hour. Do you think any counters of sufficient skill will really work for that?

Again, I'm trying to figure this out to present to the investor group as to what's required to make something like this work.

let us now how it all works out

if you really want to put a team together join green chip
they have spreadsheets for dividing up money for team play

or buy blackjack attack they also have a breakdown of how much money each person earns

i just bought them both and i can tell you the knowledge is invaluable

as a counter than an investor. If you are an accomplished, experienced player with adequate bankroll, this offers little incentive. Might be a decent opportunitly for good young counter with limited bankroll. The problem with experienced counters is finding places to play. Being part of a team is not going to help and might hurt.

Hm. So Lawrence says it's a great deal for the counter but JPB would be less interested as 'counter' than 'investor'. One each. Can I take that to mean the general perception is it's balanced "fair" between both parties?

Actually, ideally for ME I may want to do both, i.e. be an investor in one role and put up 5K of my money for the project but also (finally!) get my counting skills up to where I can be one of the "workers" too, for the $15/hour pay as well.

That's kinda why I am pushing to put this together for these guys. One other of 'em also is a decent basic strategy player who I think I can train to count sufficiently well.

Anyhoo it's a project. I'll post more here if/when we actually do it (probably join green chip for the lot of us too if it happens). THX again for all comments.

When you make an ad in the newspaper saying that you have a "safe winning system" and you are prepared to share profits with anyone who is willing to invest in your adventure you will most probably get no response.The problem is that in general the investor always has a safer alternative for making some profit. But a card counter only has his lop sided knowledge and if he doesn't find money his skills are useless.
OK you might say that nowadays with the enormous US-debt and the forthcoming bankrupcy of Greece and may be even some other Euro-states there is nothing to gain anywhere for an investor without risk. But how do you want to convince him that you are trustworthy?
As a rule the investor takes the whole benefit and a card counter is just his employee that he pays upon market conditions.Therefore,
it is best to be an investor and card conter at the same time: that would be called a professional!

Francis Salmon

Francis Salmon

Comp value (not "face" value, but an agreed upon value between all) are also a benefit that needs to be considered. If the players are getting all of the comps, then this would significantly boost their $15 per hour cash wages.

A serious, skilled, and experienced counter already has their own $50K BR most likely. You would need to up the Team BR quite a bit to attract that type of player. On the other hand, $15 / hour + comps is probably better than the average beginning counter could do on their own, so that's the type of counter you would most likely get for this team.

The investors have the money and they should look at the issue of employee (counter) compensation the same way that any business owner does. There are 2 considerations:

1) Pay the employee $1 more than the minimum required for them to accept the offer; and

2) In no event should you ever pay any employee $1 more than the value that they bring into your pocket.

...since the lion's share will be on the BP's card as he's making the big "crazy bets" all over the floor. But on the other hand the counters sitting and grinding away with their flat bets will build up some comp points on their own accounts too.

Maybe the counters keep their points, but the BP pays for everyone's dinner at the end of the session, as a group? Of course then you run the risk of casino management seeing the BP having dinner with the group of counters and busting the team after all. So, maybe not... I'm not sure.

Anything beyond just the dinner comp for the group that remains on the BP's account (room, airfare etc) could stay with him I suppose. This is all a detail we'd have to work out if/when we actually try it.

And, yes, more and more I'm thinking this is a setup for NEW counters who don't yet have their own bankroll or a lot of experience under their belt yet. Could be a good way to "grow your own" as it is often recommended in setting up a blackjack team. Hmm.

My personal preference would be a team where everyone was a player and an investor. You get alot of symmetry by having the ability to play to the larger team bank (thus higher EV for the same ROR), balance out some of the short-term fluctuations, and don't need to worry about the players or investors feeling like they are getting the short end of the bargain. This would work best if everyone put up roughly similar amounts and had roughly equivalent skill levels.

Yeah, that's the standard setup I think BUT this was suggested to me as a possible better approach since there are more possible "investors" out there than already trained, skilled, ready to work card counters, i.e. the original post idea with 10 investors and only 4 counters working.

But as I posted, myself, I'm looking at being one of both roles on the team at the same time: putting up $5K but working for the hourly too.

Off topic, as I posted earlier too I am an OK counter at single deck (running count) but my skill level seems to be hung up on getting over true count conversion, math division, or estimating remaining decks and dividing. Can't seem to grok that.

Would the Red 7 count (unbalanced count, no TC conversion) be accurate enough for a team's use? Or would we really have to use something more advanced to have enough of an edge to expect to win long term?