Illustrious 18

What does the "Index", is there a difference when the index is - or +? If the index is -1, would I deviate from BS at -1 and lower? Or follow BS at -1 and wait to deviate when TC goes lower than the index of -1. What about + index, stay with BS at the +index or is the index the point at which a player would deviate from BS. Author Henry J. Tamburin (BJ Take the Money and Run) gives and example; 9v7 = index of +3; he explains to Hit at +3 and lower counts (which is following BS), but Double at +4 and higher counts (deviating from BS). So I understand this to mean that at the "Index" you still follow BS? Because another example he gives is conflicting; 13v2 = index of -1; he explains at -1 and lower to Hit (which is a deviation from BS "at the index") and to Stand at 0 and higher (following BS). So is the "Index" the point at which you don't follow BS? Or do you wait for the T/C to go higher or lower than the "Index" then deviate from it?

The main rule regarding the index is:

Stand (or double or split) at a count per deck equal to or greater than the number, hit (or do not split) at a count per deck less than the number.

"Stand (or double or split) at a count per deck equal to or greater than the number."

Let's expand this to be a bit more complete: Stand, or double, or split, or surrender, or take insurance at a true count greater than or equal to the index."

For our original poster (John E.), note that it's best not to think about this in terms of whether you're violating BS when you're above or below the index, because, depending on the play, it can be either! When you stand on 12 v. 3 when the TC is +2 or above, you are violating BS, but when you stand on a 12 v. 4 at a TC of zero or above, you are following BS!

So, just think of the indices as the dividing points where, equal to, or above, you stand, double, split, surrender, or insure, and where, below, you don't do any of the above. (Note: A few indices work in reverse, such as splitting 8,8 v. T. Here, we split when we are below the index. But such plays are very rare.)

Don

Thanks for the response, it's clearer now.

i thought variations depended on the running count not on true count???

"I thought variations depended on the running count not on true count???"

Well, then, I'm afraid you thought wrong. If your count system uses true counting, then your index numbers refer to the true count. If you use a RC system, such as K-O, then your index numbers refer to running count, provided you aren't using TKO (true-counted K-O).

Don

for Basic Strategy Variations
if i'm using hi lo count system i play it by running count correct?
and bet by true count??

and what about for halves counting system?

Both betting and playing depend on card distribution. The only correct measurement for card distibution is the true count.Systems which don't convert make a concession to precision for the sake of simplicity but hilo is certainly not one of them let alone halves.Only when the index is right at the pivot can you use the running count (16v10 or 12v4).Otherwise you should convert.

Francis Salmon

"for Basic Strategy Variations if I'm using hi lo count system I play it by running count correct?"

I thought I answered that. NO!!

"and bet by true count??"

You do BOTH by true count. (Clearly, you, personally, don't, which is unfortunate, but what I mean is one ought to do both by true count. I hope you haven't been doing it the wrong way for too long.)

"and what about for halves counting system?"

Same thing.

Don

When the true count is equal to or greater than the index the decision is to hit,stand,double, split or surrender. Don is right on that however Wong says that when the index is at the pivot point you can flip a coin on the decision. Not to be confusing but sticking to the strategy explanation Don gave above is the best. When at a pivot point or close decision wait, pause,estimate cards in other players hands or even ask another player what they have. When you flash they will flash. It may help at a pivot point. Check your count at home during practice sessions. You may be suprised sometimes.

I didn't contradict Don in any way.(I wouldn't even dare! :-)).
bluem3 raised the question whether RC or TC, and I said he could use RC only when the INDEX in question (not the count!)is at the pivot which is 0 for hilo and I think all other balanced counts. Here you always get the right answer either way.
As to the practice sessions I still do them regularly before or during every extended trip and I wouldn't return to the tables if I didn't consistently arrive at 0 at the end of a 6-deck-shoe.

Francis Salmon

My comments were directed to BLUEM3. He was confused. Not directed towards your ability. Pivot points for decision making are actually when the true count matches all index playing decision. Not just zero.
16 vs 10 might be zero and 12 vs 3 might be +2. Both zero and +2 are pivot points.

In BJ-literature the word pivot is used to describe the point in a counting system where RC and TC are identical. This is 0 for balanced systems (but +4 for KO).Using the RC will therefore remain without consequences in situations where the index is 0 (16v10 or 12v4). But relying on the running count in the situation 12v3 will lead to many missed hits.

Francis Salmon

You posted:
"In BJ-literature the word pivot is used to describe the point in a
counting system where RC and TC are identical"

That is considered a pivotal point by standard dictionary definition.
However I am not aware of any specific definition in BJ Literature of that meaning. Can you refer to where you got that information?

The definition in the GLOSSARY in the side bar to your left reads:
"Pivot point. The point in an unbalanced count where the player advantage remains the same no matter how many cards remain to be dealt."

Websters:pivot
n pivot [ˈpivət]
the pin or centre on which anything balances and turns.

Thus Pivot means that it is a specific turning point. Most decision tables are true count indexes. We all agree on that but any index number when reached (by using true count) is a pivot point.

When Wong says to "flip a coin if the count per deck (true count)equals the (index) number" then one would assume that he is referencing/defining a "pivot point".

Your post is well written and clear, but, unfortunately, the opinions expressed therein are solely your own; i.e., they don't correspond to the popular usage of the term "pivot" or "pivot point," in BJ research and literature.

Those terms are reserved for the phenomenon as Francis describes it, above. We don't call the precise index at which a play switches favorability from one decision to another the pivot point. Griffin calls that point the "critical index." Others might refer to it as an "inflection point," or the "strike number." But, "pivot" is reserved for something else. Sorry.

Don

"Popular usage" "Reserved terms".. thanks Don.
OK the meaning is understood. Used in BJ language but not in a
techincal meaning. Something like when the dealer finished dealing a DD and said
"that was a good shoe".