Idle ramblings-a card counting newbie's perspective

I love the game of blackjack. I always have, ever since I was able to play the game with my father and siblings at home as a child to being able to play in the casinos for real money. I have never won any real money at blackjack, though. It was always my "entertainment" when I went to Vegas. I set a limit at what I could lose without hurting too much, and would then usually proceed to do exactly that, lose my limit. I eventually got good enough without any real training to play some limited basic strategy and I could extend my playing (losing) time over a longer period of time. But, I was a ploppy, I would eventually lose. So, I've finally decided to get serious about the game I love. I'm learning how to count cards. I don't know if I will ever get good enough at it to actually use it to finally win some money at BJ, but I'm having fun learning.

So, why do the casinos hate it so much that I want to count cards? I'm not cheating. If I were cheating, I would somehow be physically manipulating the cards to stack the deck in my favor, or I would be manipulating my bet in an illegal way to gain an advantage. I'm doing none of these things. I am playing by the casino's rules of the game. I am only increasing my chances that I can make a correct guess at what cards might be coming out to me, but there is still the chance that I won't get what I need. I am not cheating!

Why should the casinos care that some of us count cards? Counting cards is not easy. It's freakin' hard. You must spend an incredible amount of time learning how to do it. It takes hours upon hours upon more hours of practice. And there is still no "guarantee" that you will win all of the time. In fact, you most likely will not win all of the time. Only just enough of the time that in the long haul you will come out ahead. Therefore, it is extemely unlikely that any significant number of the people who play blackjack will ever want to count cards. The casinos will always make their blackjack money off people who don't count cards. There will never be enough people who count cards, or even enough people who even want to learn to count cards to ever be a real threat to the casinos' income. So why do they hate us so much?

I watched a program on the Travel Channel about which games in Vegas give the player the best odds of winning (blackjack, craps and baccarat) or at least have the smallest house advantage. The person talking about this made the comment that the casinos actually like to have some winners. It's good for business. If people hear that so and so won big at this casino, more people will come to play than if they hear that no one ever wins at that casino. But when it comes to blackjack, it's not good business to have winners it seems. Even if only a very few people can consistently win at blackjack, these few are hounded and threatened incessantly, for doing something that is only playing by the rules and not doing anything illegal. Card counters will never be a threat to the casinos because there are really so few people (relatively speaking, comparing all who play the game) who can or will do it.

So, why do the casinos care that some of us count cards? Why do they hate us so much? These are really rhetorical questions. I already know the answers. I am sure you all have heard these arguments umpteen million times. I plead innocence because I am new at this. But, I just wanted to vent to some hopefully sympathetic ears.

Thanks for listening - or reading. :)

and they are enveous. For some reason they think the little money we take is about 50 times more than what it really is.

Funny. Those were the exact words I was thinking. Greedy bastards.

Generally speaking, I am know for being a casino-lover. But I don�t agree with a lot o what your saying.

First, I don�t think they �hate� counters. Oh, there are some individual bosses who do. And there are some chains that seem to have a formal policy of malevolence. But those are out of the mainstream.
I have been rejected by about 11 casinos, depending on how you count. I have been 86ed, backed-off, flat bet, half-shoed, and PSed off.

In only a few cases have I felt any personal animosity. As one casino executive said �We have made a business decision: your welcome to engage in any other game, but we are not going to play anymore BJ with you.�

The casinos with the best game protection are so good because some of he bosses count cards themselves on their day off.

Now look at from the casino�s perspective. They have an obligation to make a profit for their stockholders. Heck, there may be schoolteachers whose retirement funds are invested in them!

Now suppose a casino had a policy of dealing good games, open to all players, regardless of skill. No countermeasure, no backoffs. What do you think would happen. A lot of us would go there and make a LOT of money. Note: what an individual counter makes has a negligible impact on a casino�s profitability. But the AP community, taken as a whole, can inflict damage. We don�t: but that is partly becuase there is some game protection. With no game protection, there would be a lot more counters.

Would this be enough to make BJ non-profitable. Maybe not. But from the casino perspective, relative profitability is important. You have a certain amount of floor space. You can put a BJ game there, a Carnival game, or a Slot machine. Those BJ table has to compete with all of those.

You said that you were a beginning counter. Hopefully, you playing low stakes. Have you had any rejections? Few casinos will reject low stakes players, and the ones are real jerks. If you encountered one of them, then I can understand why you would have some bitterness.

But if you haven�t been rejected, why are you so bitter?

PS: Just in case it isn�t clear, I do think the casinos are employing an excessive amount of game protection. I think some game protection is required, but a lot are so paranoid that it costs them.

Perhaps I shouldn't really have said they hate us. But they definitely seem to dislike us. I can't really refer to "us" either. I have never counted cards at blackjack, I'm just learning at this time. So, I have not had the privilege of being backed-off, barred or backroomed yet. However, all the experiences of others I have read about gives me a pretty good idea of what I could be in for. I can see your point of how the casinos view card counters. But the casinos' behavior toward card counters still seems to be very much over the top for something that is not a crime and not even against the rules. Well, maybe it is against their unwritten rules. But still, it isn't cheating.

There is some behavior of casinos toward cart counters that is clearly over the top. We made a video about Casino Abuse last year, perhaps you have seen it.

But one of tee things that was noted in that video was that there are only a few casinos that are involved in most of the documented cases of abuse. I would say that that the casinos that do that are not in the mainstream.

I wouldn�t call being �barred or backed off� a privilege. It is just something that happens. Like getting rained on.

In my younger days when I would train for marathons, I got rained a lot. It was something that I considered a privilege; it is just something that happens if you want to train for marathons.

Getting backed off is just something that happens if you want to make money at BJ.

I hear what you are saying. I just really want my perfect world! ;)

Anyone got a little cheese for my whine?

It's true that most casinos don't engage in thug-like tactics such as beatings, throwing counters in jail, disappearing acts into the desert, etc. BUT MOST OF THEM WOULD LIKE TO. It's fear and only fear that keeps them in line.

Did you know that surveilance types have their own private boards? I've seen a few of them. Counters are spoken of as the lowest of the low. On one board in particular, anything remotely resembling a defence for the crime of counting is BUSTED faster than you can cancel a T-5 combination. The oft expressed opinion there is that everyone knows the house must have an edge to stay in business, therefore anyone who tries to defeat that edge is a criminal. We should all just be happy with an occasional winning day, purely through luck. Luck is OK; playing with an edge is cheating.

I've heard a radio advertisement dozens of times about "a man who won a million dollars at the blackjack tables" at Binion's Horseshoe in Indiana. They were happy about that. Good advertising. I happen to know he lost TWO million the week before. He was playing two hands at $30 grand apiece. Funny, they never mention that part on the radio.

One service that more than a few casinos subscribe to is the Griffin service. It lists counters right along with cheaters. It makes no distinction. This, to me, is an act of hate. If the average casino had any qualms about this whatsoever, the Griffin service wouldn't list them in this manner. They do it this way because it's GOOD for business. The casinos want their detective agency to believe that counting is cheating.

Don't get me wrong. The top echelon of casino owners/CEOs actually LOVE counting. They love all the free advertising it gets them. They love the fact that 95% of the people who hear blackjack can be beaten think they can do it with "card sense," so they proceed to go get their brains bashed in. They love the whole "counter culture." But they are so cynical they tell all their subordinates to HATE counters and everything they represent. They do this because it's profitable for them to do it.

They could put card counters out of business overnight with a few simple rule changes. But no, they prefer the endless cat and mouse game, because it's the best of all possible financial worlds for them. The wasteful, extravagent expense of trying to catch counters is a pittance compared to the free advertising provided by all the books, web sites, etc. To say nothing of the advertising from a backoff. Everyone who witnesses a backoff thinks "See, that PROVES it can be beaten." How many of those are going to go out and buy a book? And so the cycle continues ...

ETF

You made this statement, and on a PR basis it is very true, but I do not think it really applies to blackjack.
Here is my reasoning: On some kind of progressive slot, Aunt Mary or whoever, puts in a bunch of quarters and wins 100 grand. Now that is news. That is real money. That gets publicity and more customers for the casino. Same when the royal is hit in Carribean Stud or some game with a big bonus. These kind of games all have huge house advantages but have a huge jackpot.
The better games, blackjack and craps for example, have small house advantages but offer no super lucky jackpots in the normal game. So if you want to win 100 grand at blackjack, you have to be betting a hell of a lot more than a hand full of quarters. If you are an AP there is a good chance you will not last long enough to win that much. There is no public relations spin.
This has much to do with why the beancounters love slots and carnival games. It has just as much to do with the answer to the question of, "why do people play games like keno?"
The beancounters make more money and get publicity for the casino when a jackpot is hit. The ploppy's have a dream that perhaps the next quarter is the one. The business is based on the ploppy's dream.

they would like them to play at someone else's casino. Card counters provide free advertising for the game itself, for all the reasons mentioned above. But an individual casino can maximize its own benefit by letting other casinos pay for that advertising.

About your statement

Did you know that surveilance types have their own private boards? I've seen a few of them. Counters are spoken of as the lowest of the low.

How did you get to see �private� boards for �surveillance types�. I have never suspected you of being a casino spy, and I presume there is another explanation.

BTW, there are some nasty things said about casino personnel on AP boards. But I would object if somebody said card-counters �hate� casino bosses.

Also, I think the other side viewed hole-card players as the �lowest of the low�.

for the industry in general, I will repost for all to ponder the following:

We need something really big; how about having a select group of 100 players congregating every year to square off in a points battle or in elimination rounds. 40 hands per round on 6D shown on big monitors seen live at maybe MGM while also televised on GSN. The disguises, the mystic, the hype, the excitement, the comedic anouncer, the BIG MONEEEEEEY!!!!!! The anonymity of the players gets protected by security in addition to other various means.

The public would go wild over it. It could be so big and beyond the usual norm. We need someone who knows how to talk the talk to the big boys for us. Someone who is connected and can think big and outside the box. It could be so big that every year the big casinos even fight, compete and bid for who gets to sponsor it.

Don't forget. We the AP's of the world are what helps to drive the gambling industry. We are what gives the typical ploppy the dream of grandeur and that the games can in fact be beat.

This is a possible way for us to work together with the big casinos at least for one special event per year. Then we go back to fighting each other as per usual. It makes for an incredible opportunity. It could be so perfect because it�s so opposite. It's like making oil and water mix for the very first time!

You should post a URL for one of the security boards. Would be interesting reading. :)

Also a little disinformation could go a long way there. :)

How did you get to see �private� boards for �surveillance types�.

Three different times, that I can think of over the last ~15 years; three different methods. I can't tell you "how" for reasons that shouldn't be hard to imagine. However, I've seen public surveilance boards that are almost as bad. I actually found one once by googling "counters are cheaters."

I have never suspected you of being a casino spy, and I presume there is another explanation.

Gee, thanks. And I'll presume you aren't a casino spy just because you often seem to advocate for their side.

BTW, there are some nasty things said about casino personnel on AP boards. But I would object if somebody said card-counters �hate� casino bosses.

I don't think the other side says they "hate" us, either. At least, not often. I would think better of them if they did. I would have to hate someone to defame them and group them unjustly with cheaters.

But you don't really believe No card-counters hate casino bosses, do you? After all, nobody would say "All card-counters hate casino bosses, just as sp-dacountnoob never said "So why do they All hate us so much?"

Also, I think the other side viewed hole-card players as the �lowest of the low�.

Probably the ones bright enough to realize how much greater a hole-card player's edge is would think that. My impression is that would be a minority. Just an impression. I haven't spent days and days studying their boards. It's entertaining, but there's very little there to learn.

ETF

... any more than a url will get you into green chip.

Honestly, I don't know if I have any of the url's any more. In one case there is no url. They might be on my old computer, with a Windows protection error. But I can't share 'em anyway. Sorry.

ETF