It is apparent that Max Rubin, the commentator on WSOB was on a show called 'Players World' and said the following:
"6/5 is great game for the inexperienced player because the professionals tend to stay away from that game".
Players world is on this Tuesday 9pm for a half hour on the Men's Channel, central time. Rubin speaks for 5 minutes at the end. It is obvious he has big casino $ backing his words. I hear it is something we should check out.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/greenbaize21/maxrubin.htm
He discussed his past work identifying card counters for the casinos.
Kind of reminds me of "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me".
But he is not the only so called blackjack expert, who seems to be more of an extension of the casino's marketing department. We are lucky to have a web site like BJ21, which does not always try to gain favor with the casinos while selling out their readers.
A good example is the incident at Harrah's with the drunk that was reported by Al Rogers and the new basic strategy cards. Max Rubin would probably argue against both.
We all need to support this website. $50 a year is a cheap way to support someone, who is trying to help us keep decent games.
.. I'd agree.
Makes his BJ Hall of Fame all the more distinguished.
It is an absolute disgrace along with being very unethical and dishonest when a professional authoritative person in the industry broadcasts to his listeners a lie that will on average cost players extra $ as a result of his advise.
Max Rubin, shame on you! I believe you're not so ignorant as to give players such bad advise accidentally.
..now let me first start out by saying I do NOT condone 6:5, it is an evil game...however, for the recreational player, one that IS NOT playing with an edge, and may go to vegas once or twice a year...
there may be circumstances where a 6:5 table is better then some of the games with a lower house edge....a much lower table min for example...lets say a rec player can get away with a $5 min bet on a 6:5 but must pay $15 min bet on the rest of the tables...either way he is not playing with an edge...and has to put down three times the money to play a game with a better edge?
Now of course, if the tables are all as empty as Rubin suggests, then you have the greater hand per hour in a neg. expectation situation, and it may negate the "bargain" the rec player gets on the lower minimum. However, with more shuffling vs a shoe, it would have to be a significant difference in number of other players...
Again, I HATE 6:5 and agree that the casinos are ripping unknowledgable players off with this awful games, but if the rec player is going to lose in the long run anyway and can obtain more gambling hours for his gambling dollar (either by playing at a busier table, a lower min, or both) house edge may not be of maximum importance to him. Personally, I would play Pai Gow before 6:5 regardless, nice slow game, lots of pushes, house edge not great for player but again, the rec player can get more for his doughnuts...
At least thats how I see it...let the attack begin:)
D
...lets say a rec player can get away with a $5 min bet on a 6:5 but must pay $15 min bet on the rest of the tables...either way he is not playing with an edge...and has to put down three times the money to play a game with a better edge?
At least he is getting to play a real honest-to-goodness game of Black Jack. The way it was intended. The way it should be. Not a carnival game disguised as BJ. Besides, there are plenty of $5 6-D and 2-D 3/2 games in this world away from LV Strip that have way better odds than the typical 6/5 game..
BSS please don�t conform to this crap the big casinos are pulling on us. Don�t go soft now. I think we�re gaining some ground.
Mr. Ruben is correct that 6:5 Blackjack is a good game for the recreational gambler. Compared with other house games, the 1.44% house edge of 6:5 BJ is not that bad. Three card Poker has a house edge of 7.28% (3:1 payoff on flush), Slots usually 6-8% and Carribean Stud 5.2% house edge.
However, the professional or even slightly educated gambler knows better than to play these horrible games. Thus, professional players will not be playing at a 6:5 table, as stated by Mr. Ruben.
The fact that he is making a statement encouraging anyone to play 6:5 Blackjack is the real crime. He knows the games and odds. Therefore, giving bad advice to people who look to him for expert gaming advice is what makes him a real piece of sh*t.
It is these Casino people that are destroying the games. This is why we must do our best to educate the recreational players about these ripoff games. Thank you Mr. Wong and PiYee Press for the Basic Stretegy/Games to avoid cards. We need to make them as prevalent as the Escort cards handed out on the strip.
I completely agree with everything that you are saying. It is a bastardized version of the game we have all grown to love...and hate..
Just saying that Rubin's statement isnt entirely incorrect based on the various facts of the game..a higher expectation isnt necessarily whats "best" for the typical rec player. It is if all other factors between the two games are equal, but how often does that happen?
What really makes me chuckle is that we act as though we really care about the ploppie. The ploppie has been our buffer which allows the casinos to make (in actual win%) MUCH more then their edge. We want the ploppie to lose, we NEED the ploppie to lose, but now we need the ploppie to avoid games that are bad for us, not necessarily them. Anybody who doubts this, ask yourself how many AP's would stop a ploppie you didnt know from heading over to a Carribian Stud table. None you say? Thats right. You know why? Because WE DONT CARE! We only care when it is in our best interest...
The truth that nobody really wants to admit is, 6:5 is nowhere near as bad for the rec player as it is for us. We are in an "uprising" if you will (and I say we because I am with you 110%) and it's ok to make it out as though it is really hurting everybody as badly as it is us, but that is simply not true.
6:5 SUCKS.
I snarl in disgust (literally) everytime I see it...
and I will continue to speak out against it...
I just dont think Rubin should be nailed to the AP cross so to speak for saying something that isnt necessarily untrue...(of course he could have qualified his statement a little more accurately)..
D
So what else is new, right!? :)
> We want the ploppie to lose, we NEED the ploppie to lose ..
I don't. No, I really don't.
I would never give a ploppie bad advice just to run out a negative count of cards. If asked for advice, I'll either defer or give the correct advice. I would not advise them to play the bad card games just so, selfishly, I can help run the rake up and hope the casino might go a little easier on the heat. I won't do it.
There are enough know-it-all bad card players out there to not be worried about the house losing money.
They are gonna' do just fine.
Educate the civilians and the 6:5 might go away.
Don't educate them, and it might take over.
..I said in my previous posts that I speak out against 6:5, I agree it is wrong...and I would be MUCH happier if it were not there at all...
However, giving a ploppie bad advice or good advice will not effect their fate. The ploppie plays a negative expectation game, he will lose in the long run. We need them to lose in the long run (not at 6:5 mind you, but just in general) in order for us to win. I am not saying we should tell a ploppie to play 6:5 over a GREAT 3:2 single deck game...or even over a 3:2 6D game assuming all else is constant...
I am saying that under certain circumstances, it can be correct for the ploppie to play 6:5 and make his trip bankroll last longer assuming other options are either A..less crowded, B..have higher limits..or C...both...
Again, let me make this very clear..
I do not like 6:5, I think it is disgusting. However, from the perspective of the ploppie, who's real goal (whether or not he actually realizes it) is to make his money last as long as possible, 6:5 may NOT be the worst option in the house. It COULD be, but house edge does not rule their world as it does ours....
D
You are saying that maybe, possibly, if conditions were just right, Rubin's statement would not entirely be incorrect. He statement was completely false due to his reason for newbies having a better time at the 6:5 game. Because the pros stay away? Like that matters.
In the real world there are always better options to 6:5. I have not heard of a town where the BJ conditions are so bad that a newbie should resort to 6:5. Even if 6:5 was the only game that existed, a newbie would be better off checking out other games in the casino rather than playing 6:5 BJ. There are plenty of other games that will take far less money per hour. There is simply no reason to ever play 6:5, for a gambler or a counter.
The bottom line is that Rubin made an incorrect statement. Since he is apparantly educated in the ways of BJ one could assume he sold out. But...he could be getting senile. You never know.
kRis
hypoethical situations like a full table and lower limits?
hmmmmm
So let me get this straight...a recreational player has a limited bankroll of $500 dollars for the weekend, and then he is done, just drinking and eating after that. He has the choice between a 6:5@$5 min or a 6D shoe at $15 min....which one will allow him to lose his money less quickly? Mathmatically, number of people at the table and lower minimums are more important to a basic strategy player then edge. Edge only really means anything to those who can overcome it, otherwise other factors become more important...
As for if this is what MR meant, I dont have the slightest idea, you would have to ask him. As for if he was acting ethically, that is not for me to judge, I personally couldn't care less. Unless he has written other books I am unaware of, his book is mainly geared towards basic strategy players attempting to make "money" through playing for comps. I dont see how making a statement about 6:5 is unethical based on any of his writings that I am aware of, since last I checked they comp at the 6:5 table as well. At any rate, let me state once again that I am NOT in favor of 6:5, but so long as it is still here it is not necessarily a bad option for basic strategy players given certain circumstances.
Enough Said, I am done:) Thanks for the conversation everybody..
D
A player only gets 1.44% at 6:5 if they play perfect BS. Most of the �recreational gamblers� don�t.. They house probably has at least a 3% against them, and it may be 4 or 5.
For the few who do know BS, they can get a MUCH better game playing shoes. Should be able to get down to .3% or so, depending on the store.
This means they would lose 3 or 4 times as much playing 6:5 as shoes.
...Games to avoid cards. We need to make them as prevalent as the Escort cards handed out on the strip.
I second the motion.
SB
Whether or not there is anything possitive to any certain group of players with respect to 6:5, I think it is best for most of us to do anything we can to kill it by any means available. Even if we had to bend the truth about it a little and make it sound worse than it really is when speaking to the multitudes of players. Hey, look what we're up against! We must fight fire with fire, otherwise we're just toast eventually.
Never say anything possitive about 6:5 to anyone. Do anything we can to make the casinos suffer for having it on the casino floor.
The problem with 6/5 is that they have replaced many normal six/eight deck low limit games previously availiable. Players continuing to play 6/5 guarantee that these low limit fullpay games are lost for good.
Regardless, there are still plenty of low limit 3/2 games to play at most places...and even a CSM is a better play for most gamblers than 6/5.
I am all for ploppies demanding a better game. I often have ploppies bitch all night about the penetration and bad rules for me. Of course I never say anything (at least about the pen). They'll listen to the losers more than the winners, and most PB's have enough common sense to tell that I'm an above average player.
Give them a decent game! Most rec gamblers have a trip bankroll, so you'll get the same amount off them anyway. And they'll associate your place with winning while losing the same amount as they would with 6/5.
..I would never state what I did in earshot of a casino or a large group of ploppies...but here, where I think we can assume very few if any ploppies really come and understand what is being said..there is no real threat. I think it is important to understand the difference between stating the truth and stretching the truth in order to help our cause...
Purchasing some of those cards today...going to hand em out my next trip to vegas...where do you suppose is the best place to hand em out? No way Im going to hand em out in the pit and let the critters know I am a knowledgable player...
D
No way Im going to hand em out in the pit and let the critters know I am a knowledgable player...
True, especially if the card says "BJ21.com". ;-)
..similar playing conditions like table limits and # of players...
As you well know, total $ lost is a factor of min bet and number of hands per hour...as well as edge...
