How to count w

Usually, I try to play at heads up or with just one or two other players, and sit on third base. I can keep up with the count pretty well, mostly counting each set of two starting cards after all cards are out.

When more than two other players are at the table, I sometimes get lost, especially when the first base guy takes a couple of cards before I'm through counting the starting cards.

I find it easier to track every card as it comes out, rather than counting the two cards at a time. But I've always tried to not "look like a counter", staring at every card as it comes out.

How do most of you track the cards/count?

...wait until all the players have their two cards and the dealer has his one card face up. THEN scan all the cards on the table. It will seem a bit awkward at first, but with an hour or so, because of the cancelling effect of many of the two open face cards, you will be doing it as though it is second nature and with much less effort.

If you happen to get a peek at the dealer's hole card, even better, but be sure to email me with the info.

Good luck,
Jay Cobbson

..after you have been doing this a while, your brain will start to cancel the cards of two and then three players at a time. You won't be able to control it. The human brain is a wonderful thing. It even adapts to a multi-level system with enough practice.

Just remember:

I have tried to learn different techniques just so I don't look like a counter. One thing I've done is not count everyone's first two cards before I count the hits. Ignore them completely until the dealer flips their up card then count that card and the players cards as they hit/stand. It gives you time to chat, watch TV etc., not looking obvious. Just something to try.

..in your posting, but if you don't count the player's cards to your left until they take a hit, you are making your first decision without consideration of their cards. You don't really want to do that, do you?

Jay Cobbson

Jeez, I'm starting to sound like Peter Falk in the Columbo TV series.
One usually doesn't look like a counter when he is doing his counting, short of moving his his lips, head or counting with his fingers and toes. You look like a counter basically by the changes in your bets and your decisions, how they correlate to the count or differ from what the typical ploppy or basic strategy player would do. There are other factors dealing with "cover", but this is basically it.

Jay Cobbson

"Excuse me sir, I know you're busy, just one more thing", Lieutenant Frank Columbo

Whatever technique you use, the counting process will always take at least 0.3 seconds per card. Of course there has to be some kind of grouping to keep up the pace. Counting the cards in pairs is not necessarily a simplification when neutral cards are involved and it's also questionable whether you should wait till the second round to start counting.Why play with a handicap?
Personally, I do the temporal grouping rather than the geographical one which means that I count the cards as they come out of the shoe. The grouping is done in a way that the cards either cancel each other out or change by two units (only even numbers to memorize).
This way I'm always "at the ball" and ready for playing decisions.
The issue of camouflage is greatly overstated. No beginning card counter has ever been barred for gazing at the cards.

Francis Salmon

First, why are you playing a full or nearly-full table?

Second, I suggest you sit at 1st base (or as close to it as possible) until you get your speed up. Sitting there, the only time you have to "speed count" is when the dealer gets a snapper.

Sometimes you have no choice about a full table. Better to make less money than none at all. Plus it all depends on the location of the country you play in. As for learning to count the cards themselves, ignore the players first card and the dealers upcard. Then as the players second card comes, count them in pairs, adding, subtracting or cancelling as you go (You will learn just to ignore the ones you need to cancel like 10-6 or 7-8). Then count the dealers upcard followed lastly by the hit cards. Once you become proficient at this you can find easier and faster ways for yourself. Also find a slow dealer while learning. It may hurt your hourly wage but just like in most jobs, you cant start from the top.

Also, I like first base as well as you can see extra cards in inside the shoe if you play those games.

that he sits at 3rd base. you are off course right it doesn't work sitting any other place. It's just a thought. I learned this method out of necessity. When I first started counting it was at stores that I frequented often prior to counting. The pit bosses knew me well and would often chat with me between hands. If I started staring at the cards coming out of the shoe I felt I was being too obvious since that was not my norm.

Practice by yourself with a deck turning over 2 cards at a time, either canceling out or adding as the other posters suggested. Counting is highly repetitious and becomes second nature eventually. I played a casino for a while that had all my favorite songs. I guess they were targeting my age group. For a change I tried to whistle while I counted. I tried it more from six deck boredom than anything else. By the end of the day I could whistle any song I knew very well while I counted Halves. It really wasn't that hard, more of a coordination and practice thing. A month later I was at the Horseshoe in Shreveport and a wizened old ex-Vegas looking little pit boss was walking by and stopped to watch me when I jumped my bet. I started whistling one of my favorites while he watched. He stood there a few seconds and walked away. I played there with impunity the rest of the week.

It really doesn't make a difference if you count the players cards to your left before making your playing decisions, especially in a shoe game. As long as you have the count up to date when you make your bets the Score and WinRate will be the same no matter how or when you count the players cards. Even in single deck it makes little difference.

What you say is like claiming that driving a Volkswagen or a Porsche is the same thing. If some software says that the win rates are the same you better question that software.
Just for illustratrion:let's say you're in a big count towards the end of the shoe and you put 200$ out. The players to your left get plenty of high cards (not so rare!) which neutralizes the count totally.Since you're still in the high-count-mentality you double your 9 against the dealer 7 which is as we know a 7%-mistake.
So in one single round you statistically gave away 14$ because you didn't take into account the cards of the other players.

Francis Salmon

I was thinking of peeking at the player's cards next to you in hand held games. In this case you're only seeing 2 extra cards and as I recall it wasn't worth much at all.

I used CVData and compared a double deck game with H17, DAS, 65% penetration, 1-6 spread, $25 units, 5 players, last seat, UBZ2 with lots of generated indices. First sim face down. Second sim face up so the player has the advantage of seeing 8 more cards before making the play.
Face down: WinRate = $50.07, Score = 43.27
Face up: WinRate = $54.10, Score = 50.93

A way bigger difference than I expected! I don't think it will make as much difference in a 6 deck shoe with a large spread.

The issue was ramphreak's proposal to sit at 1.base and start with counting only when the dealer flips his hole card, which referred clearly to a shoe game.
Apart from what we have already been discussing, the problem with this method is that many cards will be missed since busted player hands and naturals are removed before the dealer turns his hole card.So, not even the betting will be correct.

Francis Salmon

I think he means to start counting once everyone has their first 2 cards. Sitting at first base you're under the gun so would be better to begin when you get your second card and then cancel the pairs as they're dealt.

� sadly has suffered the outrages of advanced Altzimer's Disease for years.

He thinks that he cannot count the cards before taking a hit without being obvious.But in that case I would avoid first base by all means.

Francis Salmon

To count accurately you should have a procedure that is consistent. Once you have mastered your procedure then you can invent ways to change it for camouflage reasons.
Always count the dealers up card first. (you will realize later why). Next count the 2 card combinations as they come out. (assuming a shoe face up game). If your sitting on 3rd base then you have time to count any and all hit cards by other players before you make your decision on your own hand. If you are at first base then you still will have the count and be able to make the decision on your hand. If you are not consistant with your procedure then counting mistakes can happen and your accuracy will be off. Do not count each card individualy as it comes out on the first round. Too much work! Wait for the scond round of cards on the deal to come out then count the 2card combinations . Learn that and you can keep up with the fastest dealers in the world. Learn that and it will give you extra time to observe the pit and the cocktail waitress.