How many counters are in the usa?

Assuming, that counters are clever people and also using the internet,
I think there are no more than 500 people in the usa, who are practizing cc.more than 10 hours a week. I have just taken a look at the number of views on this site. They show about 50 to 200 views/post. Another conclusion could be, that from these 500 skilled players only 5% have the bankroll, to bet a maximum of 500-1000$ at a TC>4(Hi/Lo). So that�s 25 people. Is this a threat for the casinos? Off course not. Are the other 475 people, betting 5$-160$ a threat? Off course not. Who has any comments?

Thank you for any input.
The Journalist

I think, I my estimation is not too bad, I made in my first post.
Also concerning the number of qualified high rollers. I would like
to know, what experience some of the skilled players on this board have made. How many cc. did you learn to know in the casinos?.

Regards, Journalist

I have been card counter for well over 10 years and you are correct, not many good card counters exist in the real world. I've seen many people at the tables I've played at dance around with their bets but after a few hands or a shoe I realize they are typical losers. I would guess that for every 6 or 7 thousand BJ players that walk into a casino, maybe one ...and I'm being generous, is good enough to win in the long run.

I think anonmousy's definition of a pro card counter is
"Anyone who raises bets." Yeah, there's one at every table.

Cool...10 years, huh? Do you mind if I ask (Since it's getting a tad closer to the long-run since you first started) how you've been doing in those 10 years now? If you're considerably up from what you started with? I don't want to get too financially personal with you, I'm just very curiously excited about the game and having a long-term edge...Now I've stumbled across some real evidence of play (You) rather than printed material stating theories (Not that I don't trust in the books).

Any kind of answer would be appreciated...thank you!

I have been card counter for well over 10 years and you are correct, not many good card counters exist in the real world. I've seen many people at the tables I've played at dance around with their bets but after a few hands or a shoe I realize they are typical losers. I would guess that for every 6 or 7 thousand BJ players that walk into a casino, maybe one ...and I'm being generous, is good enough to win in the long run.

Let's not kid ourselves here. Playing a winning game of blackjack is not rocket science and it does not take a special kind of person with a computer mind to get the money. Counting cards entails, learning basic strategy, memorizing a few indices and then adding or subtracting one from a total...or, for the 'really sharp' people, adding or subtracting as much as two or even three. Wow. Anyone who puts just a little effort into learning how to count cards and excercising some basic self-discipline can succeed in beating the casinos. We're not a bunch of geniuses sitting around piecing together the Grand Unified Theory. Bigger money players face more challenges in the form of increased heat and the increased threat of running into an untoward situation but, in the end, it's still not that hard.

I see counters in casinos nearly everytime I go play blackjack. I even saw one today when I was playing (and his act absolutely sucked). I can even remember instances of encountering three or four counters on the same table, none of whom seemed to be together. Now, of course, my experience is skewed, as I generally only play in favorable games where, naturally, one would expect to find other counters. While a lot of counters I observe clearly are not playing a winning game, overall, I would say far more than one in six or seven thousand players is capable of beating the game of blackjack.

On a side note, most counters I watch tend to overtip. While they probably will not realize a profit in the long run, neither will the casinos where they play. The only ones who win in this scenario are the dealers. I hate dealers. I wish counters would tip less.

Learning the concept of card counting is easy but the mastering of it is not. Yes some do memorize easily and can compute quickly in their heads. But overall mastery of the game is a "BITCH". I have counted seriously for a few years but is was not until this last year I decided I wanted to play like a pro: Scan a table with one glance and know both the RC an TC at once; Bet accordingly; have the I'm ready to play without emotion mind set; Talk and act like a tourist and be pit crew security minded. And last but not least FOCUS, be in the zone, see what others (ploppies) dont see, the flow of the cards. When I hit this level it was amazing how much vision you have. And even with all this you can still lose. This is what is hard. Oh yeah and staying away from that f*&%$cking wheel of fortune machine. I like that slot. It is my only voodoo game I still like. Oh yeah I play craps low low wagers and keep close to the casino edge. Good cover play if the PB is watching your overall casino act. Too many counters run from table to table and if they are continually wining they, the casino, watch! Ps i agree dont tip the dealers unless it is obvious a little grease loosens the cut card. but your right about tipping. "Hey the house dont tip ya if ya are a losin".

Yeah...10 years is a long time,huh? I guess I could lie to you and say I've won millions and have been barred out of 86 casinos,eh?
Truth is my small long term grindy edge was a rocky road and nothing to brag about. I wouldn't want to mislead you into thinking it's a simple way of getting rich and everybody can do it. Many of your humble people believe it's impossible to achieve while a few of the null think after reading a book on BJ you somehow become qualified to beat the casinos at there own game if you chose to do so, this is nonsense. If this were the case then I'm a professional pool,poker and chess player.

Anybody can play pool and poker, huh?

I agree with you that the basics of card counting are quite simple. However it does require an investment of time to learn the index numbers and money to come up with bankroll.

Also, most people are not that smart (there is a reason why most counters have some history of post-graduate college work). It may be easier to learn to count than to un-learn all of the superstition that surrounds casino games. All the bull about money managment, stop losses, and the like can be enough to cripple a potential advantage players game. Likewise having the nuts to spread far and wide in games is not all that common in a world of newbies worried about being put in the Griffin book for jumping their bet from $3 to $12 in a 50% 8-deck H17 shoe game.

Finally, while it may be easy to count, and the mathematical research is already done, many players refuse to believe in the math. Belief in the flow or the flaw or whatever is plenty enough to keep these players happy as a pig in crap playing their stop win/loss money managment systems.

You're right that learning a little hi-lo, some indexes, and the ability to eek out an advantage is not that hard but the fact is that most players either don't want to bother with it or don't believe it can help them.

Your point is correct but I think you missed mouse's point and his point is pretty much what I see in casinos: There are many different flavors of counters but very few who play in such a way that their EV/100 is going to materially hurt a casino. Mostly, I see players who are just too timid to ramp their bets as much as they can.. I find that counters are not natural gamblers and they often sweat the losses enough to where they sub-optimize their opportunities. Nickel players spreading 8x1 are all over the place.

I've seen intoxicated counters making mistakes. I've seen good betting strategy with zero playing strategy deviations. I've seen 8x1 green with no camo getting heat and I've seen equal heat applied to well-camouflaged 4x1 black after a scant 10 minutes of play.

Bottom line.. there are not a lot of professional players out there who are willing to put the time and effort into determining the sweet spots at 100s of casinos in dozens of geographic locations so as to balance a solid EV with minimal heat and countermeasures.

Spok

Reference should be to "TG" rather than "mouse".

a combination of both an art and a science rather than just an easy-money gimmick. The later are the people who's EV during the good times will be insufficient to keep their spirits up when the day comes that standard-deviation does a real ROR number on them and they decide that maybe trading penny stocks was a bigger rush.

Spok

Okay frank what is the flaw?

decades ago. It has been completely enveloped in math, and proven
mathematicaly correct by many computers. Just like for centuries
the world was flat. I will not tell any more folks what or where it
is, but it does verify John Patricks basic strategy-highly conservative.