Hole card vs no hole card

Which game is better (less house %)
assuming both games are the same ie both are six deckers same pen rules etc. Forget about spooking, front loading or even reading tells. All the advantages of hole card play really.

... by approx' 0.1%

if ENHC rules are in effect the house has a greater edge...if the dealer just waits to take a hole card until everyone finishes their hands then it makes no difference...the edge is the same either way.

I would think that a 'no hole card' game should be slightly better for a counter especially if the table is full and the counter is on 3B. The count for the deal of the dealers hole card will often be different than the count the bet was placed at. Therefore, it can and should affect the play decisions of the counter.

The count for the deal of the dealers hole card will often be different than the count the bet was placed at. Therefore, it can and should affect the play decisions of the counter.

Unknown information is just unknown information. The play decisions should be the same mathematically.

In the absence of the ENHC rule the only difference would be some minor card-eating effects, not really worth bothering about.

It makes no difference. You are re-stating a fallacy that has been proposed and shot down many many times over the years.

.....to the detriment of the players by skillful dealers. A skillful dealer can pick up player's cards in a manner that organizes 'mated sets,' totaling 9, 10, and 11, where the higher of the 2 cards is a 7 thru 9 in the discard tray with the low card on top of the high card. Many of these mated sets make it through the shuffle intact (without another shuffled card coming between them). The long-term effect can help the house by reducing the dealer busting % because a no-hole card busting dealer must take 2 consecutive cards from the shoe.

No big deal? Think again! Only in no-hold card bj will the busting dealer be guaranteed getting their 2nd and 3rd cards consecutively from the shoe. In regular bj, the only time a busting dealer gets his 2nd and 3rd cards consecutively from the shoe would occur when all players stand. It stands to reason that players will play against a dealer 10 four times more than any other up-card. Because the dealer can only bust when they take 2 or more consecutive cards from the shoe, any mated set where either of the 2 mated cards go to the dealer, will result in the dealer busting 0% of the time when showing a 10. (obviously if the low card goes to a player right before the dealer's turn, the dealer will end up with a 17, 18, or 19). Scary stuff? Think about this...........even if the 'mated set' gets to the dealer's 10 one card late, the only combinations that can bust the dealer require the dealer's 2nd card to be a 2, 3, or a 4 before getting the mated set. In this scenario the dealer will not bust 10 in 13 times, including those times a 5 or 6 hits as their 2nd card!

What to look for? A bj dealer that picks up the cards from the table in an irregular fashion - or, does not pick up the cards from the table in the same sweeping, directional motion. That is, sometimes they pick up the cards left to right, other times right to left - sometimes pausing to make it look like they are re-counting the player's hand total, sometimes re-arranging the player's bust card to give one of those "too bad this didn't happen" moments. If all the cards going into the discard tray are organized into low card on top of a mated high card, over time, there will be enough of these organized mated sets that some % of the randomness vs.. honest bj will be lost - to the player's detriment. Definitely do not play against a no-hole cad dealer as described.

If the game/dealer is honest and consistent in the way they pick up cards from the table, then I agree with John May's comments

I have never played a 'no hole card' game. Guess I'm shooting a little from the hip. However, I am of the understanding that the D takes the hole card only after everyone else has already finished their hand. Also that the hole card it dealt face up then the D continues the hand until pat or results in a bust. So in actual play at a full table, a possible 1/3rd of a deck may be dealt to the 1st 6 spots on the table including 3rd base having 2 cards and the D with 1. When the player at 3rd base finally has to make a play decision, the count will have to play a part in the decision process. The 3B player may be pondering a decision to double a 2 card 10 against the dealer 10 showing. However, given the TC may have dropped to a lower number during the round and maybe even a couple extra side counted aces flopped, the correct play decision will be altered to a hit rather than the originally intended double.

Maybe I need first some lessons on how a 'no hole card' game is played. ???

you are correct about how a no-hole card game is dealt. You are incorrect about everything else. Whether the dealer takes a hole card first or last or whether the player sits at first or third base in a face up game has no effect on player win rates.

Dr. Wogga's comments are interesting regarding pickups.

First of all, the dealers are instructed to remove the cards in a way that player and dealer totals can be reconstructed in case of dispute.
Anything else wouldn't go unnoticed with experienced players.
Furthermore, the method could backfire because a player who has discovered the stacking system can actually take advantage of that knowledge.
I don't think players need to worry about stacked cards at all as cheating by dealers is extremely rare.

Francis Salmon

Unless the cards were being deliberately set in a sequence, the effect is going to be too unpredictable to be a "valid" and workable form of cheating. The effect is just too senstive to initial conditions.

I worked hard on a method which is essentially the reverse of this: I thought it might be possible to play the hands to order cards in certain player-favourable order in the post-shuffle shoe. This is possible, but its nothing like as straightforward as Wogga is implying.

.....but on a cruise ship, with a limited amount of tables? And pit bosses sometimes dealing through breaks, and card that are "put away for safekeeping at night" (not spread on the table at the start of the day to show all 6 or 8 decks in proper sequence). And some of the old English crews who work the casinos?? And you can state unequivocably that EVERY ONE OF THESE DEALERS have impecable credentials?

I can only state that I have seen this happen. I can also state that, unless the possibility of these actions were brought to your attention, neither you, nor the public at large, would even notice. I can also state that I will not play against a dealer in the no-hole card game that does not sweep the discards in a uniform manner hand after hand after hand. My post was a caveat. A warning on what to look for. Most dealers, most casinos, are on the up n' up - no question. But, if nothing else, anyone reading these posts will, if nothing else, be on the look-out as to how the cards are picked up from the table in the no-hole card game. Once again, the key is the dealer's ability to get their 2nd and 3rd card consecutively - they cannot predict that will happen in a "regular" bj game. With practice, most dealers (if so inclined) could combine 2 player hands on the board so imperceptively, that you'd never notice - unless you were on the look-out for it!

This isn't about any great cheating conspiracy under the sun - or TARGET, or any other filled ashtray B.S. It is just an FYI, that's all - a heads-up to keep your wits about you. Nothing more.

"A skilful dealer can pick up player's cards in a manner that organizes 'mated sets,' totalling 9, 10, and 11, where the higher of the 2 cards is a 7 thru 9 in the discard tray with the low card on top of the high card."

IF you happen upon a cheating dealer, the cheater will want to control his hole card more than anything. Which is no good at NH.

The hole card, if controlled, makes a pat hand out of most dealer initial 2-card hands. (Suppose you control a 8-A. Then you put the controlled card into play if, along with the first card, it makes the dealer a pat hand. If the first card is a high card, you have a pat hand. If the first card is a small card, the dealer ignores the controlled card and plucks one from the shoe, straight up. That's the theory.)

"Only in no-hold card bj will the busting dealer be guaranteed getting their 2nd and 3rd cards consecutively from the shoe."

You are giving advice about the comparison between two games, standard and NH BJ, when you seem to ignore their basics. In NH Blackjack, the dealer gets his 2nd card when all the other cards have been dealt. He will get a 3rd card if all players stand. In that case, yes, his 3rd card will be consecutive to the first card.

"It stands to reason that players will play against a dealer 10 four times more than any other up-card. Because the dealer can only bust when they take 2 or more consecutive cards from the shoe, any mated set where either of the 2 mated cards go to the dealer, will result in the dealer busting 0% of the time when showing a 10."

No, the "mated set" needs to be comprised on consecutive high cards, as well. But where are the small cards?? They have to be somewhere. (Quickly, if the small cards are bunched together, is this good or bad for the card counter?)

If your "mated set" has a small card preceding it, the dealer who shows a high card will bust for sure.

I would speculate that the net benefit of players being dealt "clumps" of high cards would equal the loss of the dealer "taking advantage" of those "clumps".

"If the low card goes to a player right before the dealer's turn, the dealer will end up with a 17, 18, or 19."

But how does the dealer control that "small card" ? If instead of the player, the small card goes to the dealer he will bust for sure, according to the set-up you described. In other words, a good hand for the dealer in NH Blackjack (e.g. Ten showing) turns into a bust hand.

"What to look for? A bj dealer that picks up the cards from the table in an irregular fashion - or, does not pick up the cards from the table in the same sweeping, directional motion."

This is basic alert stuff applicable at any table, be it Hole, No-Hole or 18th Hole Blackjack. So we are supposed to watch out for dealers not applying consistently their pick-up routines. So what.

...Tell the truth now: Have they cleaned your clock at the cruse ship's casino?

I have played a lot of no hole card BJ in my life, and had always thought (and still do really) that it doesn't matter when the dealer takes his second card. But this thread has got me thinking about it a bit more.

Let's call hole card BJ "HCBJ" and let's call no hole card BJ "NHCBJ".

Note that NHCBJ is different from ENHC. NHCBJ is merely a procedural thing decribing the fact that the dealer takes his second card after all the players have finished playing. ENHC is an acronym describing a rule that you lose the extra money on splits and/or doubles in the event of a dealer BJ.

In a round of BJ, you have the initial deal and the subsequent deal. The inital deal is the first 2 cards that are dealt to the players and the first card (NHCBJ) or two cards (HCBJ) dealt to the dealer. The subsequent deal is the cards that are dealt out on the round that are not in the initial deal, i.e. the players' hit, split and double cards and the dealer's subsequent cards (if any) required to draw out to a hand or to bust.

Now:

How silly of me. I had never really thought that through, but it makes perfect sense: if you have a TC of x then the expected TC at any point in the future is x, other than after the very last card at which it must jump from x to 0.

This highlights the incorrectness of such things as rooting for the civilian on third base to hit his 16 vs 10 in a high count when you have stood stiff. Whether he hits or not, the expected TC at the moment the dealer draws his cards is the same.

I find it interesting how thinking about one area of the game often leads to an increase in knowledge of another area, which at first you might have thought was unrelated.

Thanks alienated.

AWS

.....can't believe the anti-semite cyber sniper would even jump into a thread from the good Dr.

However it is very simple - if you don't believe in the good Dr's advice, don't use it. One of the benefits of free society - yes?? unlike your middle eastern theocracies and dictatorships you love so much.

As for cruise ships, many have turned to CSMs and are completely unplayable. Some no longer deal no-hole card. Perhaps you haven't noticed from your pathetic soapbox.........