hitting 12 vs. 6

i'm a hi-lo player and i know that i should hit 12 against 6 on any negative running count (for shoe games). the problem is that i just can't bring myself to do this. i play at a table with obnoxious players and back-bettors. if i hit 12 against 6 on a negative count, i will have to put up with a half hour of trash talking from rich, elderly europeans. i don't care pissing them off with my correct play, but i find that arguing with them distracts me from the count.

next time i go to Vegas, i doubt i will hit 12 vs 6 on negative counts. call me paranoid, but i think that would give me away as a counter. i can't support my paranoia with experience (i've never counted in Vegas). so here's my question: is hitting 12 vs 6 something casinos look at when spotting counters? do you guys just stand instead of hitting? how much do you lose by standing instead of hitting if you don't play TCs less than -2?

yeah, i know, you guys think i'm a wuss.

the cheeze

There can be no more joy playing BJ than hitting 12 v 6 and watching a table full of morons clear. They get SO PISSED. I love it, and this has become my favorite play.

Of course, you like to win the hand. But I'll gladly give up winning the minimum bet hand to watch their faces when I hit 12 v 6, get a ten & bust, then see the dealer make a hand. "Sorry, guys. I guess I took the bust card; seems like that happens about half the time!" Then your full table suddenly becomes a head-up game.

I find it is a great way of getting rid of annoying players. If you've had a bunch of them sit down and spoil your game, hit 12 v 6 no matter what the count, just to get rid of them. Nothing clears a table faster.

I doubt the pit cares. They see it as a losing play.

thanks BJPx. problem for me is that i play in europe, the table (or tables, if i'm lucky) is/are crowded with back-bettors as well. so if i hit 12,6, catch paint and bust, then about three people back-betting on me will let me have it for a half-hour or so. and they will not leave and i will not have any other table to go to.

but in Vegas, i'll be sure to take your advice. i never thought of it that way. so you get no heat with 12,6? it seems like a frequent play that the casino can easily look at to see if you're counting.

but keep up the good work shaking up the tourists.

let it all hang out, if it's worth hitting double it!!

Joe.

Along with splitting tens, hitting 12 vs 6 (for me, only when the count calls for it,) seems to be one of those plays that can instantly transform even that sweet old lady, (who's been quietly sitting next to you, sipping her Pina Colada,) into a fire breathing red-neck who unleashes a string of paint peeling obscenities and flicks her cigarette butts (or maybe an ashtray) at you.

It is interesting how some people's BJ "table manners" can do a total 180 on those plays. The one that really gets me is the people who sometimes get mad if you hit 16 vs dealer's 10 at a no-surrender game!

I once had a lady cuss me out for doubling on A7 vs dealer's 5! Usually, if the dealer busts, they shut up. But she went on and on about it for a while, even though a couple of other players told her it wasn't a bad play. Even the dealer was giving her dirty looks.
So finally I said, "Listen, if I wanted to sit and have some ugly old woman yell at me, I would have stayed at home!"
Even the dealer laughed.
@^D

Take care,
Cyclops

I fail to see what all this backbetting nonsense is about. Americans will not back bet. They want to lose their own money, playing their own hands, making their own decisions. They are not as eager to back bet and passively watch someone else win or lose for them. If others felt the same way maybe your table conditions wouldn't be so crowded.
Why should a casino pay another dealer and operate another table, if everyone is willing to bet on each others hands? In America, having one table means they will get 7 spots worth of action. If they want 14 spots of action, they have to have another table. No one is going to back bet as common practice.

Americans are also quick to give you their stupid opinions. They will speak up and say what they think. You got three ways to go:

1) Play your hands the way they want you to and lose your money.

2) Play your hands the way you are suppose to and keep your mouth shut. (Maybe point out it is your money, and you will play your hand the way you want to - The American way, no one is going to be back betting you.)

3) Fight fire with fire. There are always lots of tables. Tell them if they don't like the way you play your hand, to go piss up a rope and find somewhere else to play. Or a well timed, forcefull, "Shut the hell up." Go Screw Yourself or Bite My Ass might be some other clever American-type phrases you can use.

I personally think option 2 is the best. Argue with stupid ploppies isn't going to educate them, and it only draws attention to yourself from the pit. Also, you never know what kind of deranged degenerate you might find yourself mouthing off to in a casino. However, there is a lot you can do in the area of body language and attitude that makes others know "grumble about my play under your breath, or find somewhere else to play, but leave me alone."

I WOUDN'T DARE USE THAT ONE-INSTANT DEAD.

From Joe;

let it all hang out, if it's worth hitting double it!

***********************

Hitting a 12 against a 6 when there are extra small cards in the remaining decks is correct...Suggesting that you might as well double it makes the above submission eligible for posting onto the John Patrick gambling website.

PATHETIC

...you should still hit most negative running counts because the turning point with 12 against the 6 is -1.3 and against the 5 even -1.7. As you don't play TC's of -2 or worse, I really think it's a good idea never to hit instead of getting involved in discussions with other players who divert your attention.

Francis Salmon

Of course I meant that you should still STAND on most negative running counts. That way, the rest of the post makes sense.Sorry.

Francis Salmon

This is a running joke on the Midwest page. Lighten up, just a little.

Joe.

The one time you don't want to clear the table is when you are stuck in a negative Shoe. You do not want to eat all those cards by yourself!

As Francis says, try to avoid playing in these negative counts. But sometimes it is unavoidable. If your stuck in one, then try to get as many other players to play, and try to keep them at the table.

Now clearing the table in a plus count is a good thing.

Well Joe I'll be glad to lighten up but there was nothing in your submission to show that it was just a joke...I've been spending too much time on the John Patrick website and your double up idea would be considered brilliant on that site.

I should have said I was just joking. My fault.

Joe.

For what rules do you get those indices? I use the numbers in PBJ for 4D, S17, and it says for 12 v 5 the index is -1, and 12 v 6 the index is 0, which goes along with what toecheese is saying...

--Homer J.

My indices were calculated on the basis of infinite decks but they are valid for any shoe games. You are probably referring to Wong's indices which are floored (-1.9 will still be considered as -1) and therefore not very precise. Using 0 for 12 vs. 6 seems outright wrong to me as this is the precise index for 12 vs. 4 and there is still some difference between these two cards.

Francis Salmon

Just curious. Is back-betting really that common in Europe? I've seen it only rarely in Las Vegas. The most memorable time was at a "budget" casino. A dressed-to-kill oriental lady entered the casino and marched directly to the table closest to the door. The table was a $5 minimum and she started back-betting with $100 bills. The back-bettor lost hand after hand, snarled at the players, and marched right back out of the casino without speaking a single word to anyone.

Wally

in yuk yuks.