For the record..

Hello one and all. Let me begin by saying that I am a casino Surveillance person, hence the 'enemy'. I do not plan on posting after this one, but I wanted it to be known up front. I had been posting on A.S.'s site - mostly responding to questions whether the casino could detain cheaters, what law allows it, whether Casinos cheat players on a regular basis and what to do if you believe it's happening. I had thought my responses were civil, except and again I freely admit it, my responses and/or thoughts regarding "Cellini". I stated (and still believe) that he's a hack that's taking advantage (no pun intended) of the advantage players natural curiousity regarding the Surveillance functions, and srews them by charging $100 for generic information. I will state 'for the record' that my opinion hasn't changed one iota. Since I apparently have no respect for that web-sites 'demi-god', I have been banned. My IP address cannot access this site any longer. Not that I consider it a loss, but upon visiting the site for a look-see, I find that 'Cellini" has taken to attacking me, knowing full well I am unable to respond. The true mark of the hack that he is.

So - I was never disrespectful to any one - other than Cellini. The one time that I was 'pissy' to Radar O'Reilly, I apologized in a later post.

Thanks for listening and I'll go back to being a quiet 'troll'. Ciao.

Having stated your 'credentials' is certainly newsworthy and of course your opinions are as valid as the next guy's....but one question comes to mind.

What are your reasons for posting here at all? Are your plans to troll for sensitive information or are you interested in helping players? Cellini has no recent record of undermining players and has offered thousands of insightful posts freely that have aided AP's in understanding surveillance. That is my opinion, at least. Others may differ, as is their right. Being a casino employee and attacking staff members at BJF probably gives the impression that you are up to no good. Two strikes and you're out...

I respect your disclosure but forgive me if I have a problem trusting you. The reason Cellini is tolerated is due to the good information he passes along and his humorous style. As has been stated numerous times, the price point of his report was a decision made by HP and not his choice. He seems to thrive on controversy, but does try to answer lots of questions as best he can.

I just didn't want to leave you hanging there. Personal attacks are not regarded lightly at BJF, and if it is any solace you are not the first to be denied access there. Sometimes a disruptive attitude can be enough to get the axe.

scobee

I think the reason was because I was ticked off about being booted and cellini, knowing full well I got booted and couldn't respond, used the opportunity to say that my "departure" proved he was right. All it proved is that he's got the "in" with the moderators.

As to why I post at all - I've been reading these boards for quite some time and I rarely post. However, a discussion was started regarding casino cheating - one you might imagine I'm quite interested in - so I joined in. I don't even know how the subject got around to cellini, but I probably started it, as I'm not really good at keeping quiet when somebody ticks me off..and his whole condescending 'tone of typing' just strikes me wrong.

I plan on 'lurking' around here, if any questions come up that I think I can help with, I will - but, unlike cellini, I maintain my loyalty to my employer and will not damage it in any way.

So, there you have it and, again, thanks for listening.

is qualified by your employee loyalties. But do not think we are of one mind when it comes to Cellini.

I don't see how we can resist asking you questions. I hope you don't have a thin skin if the going gets tough. One of the things that made the former red chip midwest such a lively site was the contribution of acknowledged casino employees to our discussions. It will be interesting to hear your views from the inside. Please feel free to add your perspectives to relevant topics as they arise.

Regards,
scobee

I commend you for the loyalty you expressed. As far as I am concerned you should be free to express an opinion of a fellow traveler, Cellinni.

The shame is you were booted for it.

Some sites can become a mutual admiration society, not allowing any dissent or disagreement. (Or worse, moderators becoming legends in their own minds, this I see often). :)

You MAY have stumbled on one, however I thing A.S. site is generally very good, that is BJF.online.

Post as much as you like.

I think many here will find it interesting.

Mr. A.S. has posted saying that I was not "banned" as he is the only one authorized to do so...and he didn't do so. But, he's being (in my opinion only) slightly disingenious with that statement.

It's possible that I could still post on his site, were my ip address not blocked, denying access to the site from my computer. I can access every other web site in the known world, except his..makes you go..hmmm..don't it? But if I am wrong and gremlins have, for some inexplicable reason, made only his web-site amongst the hundreds of thousands available, unaccessible - without any 'assistance'.. than I offer my humble apology for my remarks regarding being banned.

Again, no major loss to either his site, or myself as I'm not so full of myself to believe the words I type are worth anything...but I'm sorta fond of making sure what I say can be believed.

it was obvious to me you are from the casino. I suspected this far before your admission. However I do appreciate you confirming this.

You admit that you remain ever so loyal to your casino employer, therefore you are only lurking the net for one reason. To get in our business or try to defend casinos. It's obvious you have NO INTENTIONS of helping us improve our game. Therefore, I say it's best you get lost. If Scobee dooo and a few other have a desire to get intimate with you, then I suggest you guys start your OWN message board that is miles away. I dont blame Snyder one morsel from banning you. I wish ALL you casino lurkers would find better ways to waste time.

I'm not a Cellini fan and see potential value in participation by casino staff (Zender is a good example). You have noted both sides have an interest in policing games. And everyone wants to be informed. We have this schitzophrenic symbiotic relationship where casinos want "beatable" games but don't want counters.

One issue involves conflict of interest. While I suspect the answers, readers would like to know. Do you want to educate yourself, or actually nail specific posters? Also, what is the source of your "loyalty"? At one time casinos were run by organized criminals and didn't deserve any loyalty. Now they are ho-hum corporate. Are you loyal to your specific employer, or the industry? Many employees are only loyal to their particular bosses or customers. Some view themselves as private contractors trying to build reputation or expertise. They are loyal to their employers only to the extent their employers play a positive role for employees, customers, and the general industry.

The fact is many Vegas tourists are very happy to lose $500 and have fun. This joie de vie attitude make Vegas a great sin city. Counters have a visceral negative reaction to deception that encourages negative EV gambling by preying on stupidity or weakness. What is your attitude?

Now this is the touchiest issue. Why work in surveillance? You are polite and ambitious enough to seek information. So you could do many things. Do you see a long-term future in your job? Do you aspire to be Cellini's boss?

"Do you want to educate yourself, or actually nail specific posters?"

I have no desire to "nail" specific posters. I'm here to learn. Natural curiousity, I guess you'd call it.

"Also, what is the source of your "loyalty"?"

I'm typing this from a new computer, hooked up to a cable modem, in a new house with a brand new car in the driveway. 'nuff said.

"Are you loyal to your specific employer.."

My employer - the industry can take care of itself.

"Counters have a visceral negative reaction to deception that encourages negative EV gambling by preying on stupidity or weakness. What is your attitude?"

Counters have a reaction to anything that effects THEIR EV in a negative fashion. Card counters are not the guardians of the casino customers. Nor should they be. I seriously doubt that any counter has lost any sleep over joe-sixpack dropping a few hundred bucks without a scintilla of knowledge about the basics of the game - whatever game it may be.

"Why work in surveillance? You are polite and ambitious enough to seek information"

I have worked in several areas of the casino and this is just one that I like the best. Despite cellini's contention in his pamphlet, I've never "cowered in fear over gaming control knocking on my door". I've never been "abused" by casino management and neither have anyone who works where I do. I and my associates are well-respected (and probably feared although we don't try to "go for that effect") and our opinions are listened to and acted upon. Our only goal is the protection of the assets of the casino and the employees and patrons. We allow upper management to sleep at night without worry.

I seek information solely for the obtaining of it. When you stop learning, you might as well die. I have never used anything that I've found on these boards...nope, that's not true. When the mayor identified himself I remembered the name from like umpteen years ago and found that I had watched his play once. I identified him as a counter, but he wasn't good enough to worry about at the time (sorry Mayor)..other than that - you guys hold enough close to the vest that it wouldn't be easy to use it against you, were I so inclined.

It seems you don't play, have no intention to, and enjoy compiling information for some reason or another that you can't explain....

I think you are clearly looking for something that will get you noticed by your superiors. Thanks for not treading water on the subject. I will continue to monitor your posts with interest since you have stated you are not on the side of players.

This does not mean I don't value your opinion. Thanks for answering my questions and especially for responding to Mr. Lee's points in a frank manner.

If nothing else, I think we all enjoyed your anecdote about the mayor.

Regards,
scobee

"Counters have a visceral negative reaction to deception that encourages negative EV gambling by preying on stupidity or weakness. What is your attitude?"

Counters have a reaction to anything that effects THEIR EV in a negative fashion. Card counters are not the guardians of the casino customers. Nor should they be. I seriously doubt that any counter has lost any sleep over joe-sixpack dropping a few hundred bucks without a scintilla of knowledge about the basics of the game - whatever game it may be.

Thanks for your honest answers. You skipped part of the above question, though.

As you are probably aware from my posts, I don't like casinos. From my thousands of hours in them, I'd say that forthright people like you are the exception among casino personnel, at least those above the entry level of dealers, change people, etc. It seems that as casino employees advance to even the lowest levels of management, they "turn into lowlifes" as one respected poster here once said.

It seems that the morals and ethics are left at home. I say this with no personal animosity towards you, since I don't know you. It does strike me as a dishonorable way to make a living, though apparently more lucrative, from your description, than most of us on this side of the table believe. Many of us perceive casino management as miserly, mean skinflints who mistreat most of their employees as badly as they mistreat their patrons.

The question that you didn't answer is "What is your attitude" when casinos do despicable things like offer 6/5 ploppy ripoff single deck games, lie to unsuspecting tourists about games like Superfun 21 being "played like regular blackjack," and other typical casino lies.

I recognize that being in surveillance, you get to avoid most of the casino employees. But you mentioned that you've had other jobs in the casino.

How does the casino industry's lack of ethics and morality figure into the way you look at yourself when you accept your paycheck from a casino?

How do you feel when you see your employer's security goons rough up an advantage player, or try to kidnap (illegally "detain") someone?

How do you feel when you're asked to destroy tapes of such incidents? Or is such destruction carried out at higher levels of management?

How do you feel when a drunken ploppy is allowed to play until he loses every penny he has, but a skilled player is backed off even when playing at a level much lower than the drunken ploppy? Do you see hypocrisy there? Does it bother you?

Are any of these things even an issue with casino employees? Or does the end (getting your paycheck) justify the means (working for unethical people in a sleazy industry)?

I apologize if I have come across as argumentative -- that's not my intent. Just as you say you're curious, I am curious, too. You seem like a bright, reasonable person stuck in a really nasty industry.

Thank you for reading my comments and questions. Your response would be appreciated.

--LVBear584

"The question that you didn't answer is "What is your attitude" when casinos do despicable things like offer 6/5 ploppy ripoff single deck games, lie to unsuspecting tourists about games like Superfun 21 being "played like regular blackjack," and other typical casino lies."

Haven't we always lived in a society that's ruled by caveat emptor?

When did it become the responsibilty of the casino to babysit the tourists? As current trends seem to show, patrons seem to want gimmicks in their gambling games. Look at the popularity of the carnival games. I, personally, wouldn't play a 6/5 game, because I've been around the block enough to know that if a casino portrays it as "good for me"..it usually isn't. But, as an adult, I take the responsibility to think before spending my money. So, I guess that would be by attitude. Buyer beware.

I doubt that you would ever get a casino person to say that gambling is "moral". It isn't. It's a vice - like smoking, like drinking, like drugs. I don't hold a gun and force people to enter a casino, and I don't have a problem with taking their money.

"How do you feel when you see your empolyer's security goons rough up an advantage player, or try to kidnap (illegally "detain") someone?"

You're going to find this hard to believe, but I have zero reason to lie about it since my identity is unknown....but my casino has NEVER roughed up advantage players, and has never illegally detained anyone. We detain persons for CRIMES committed or attempted - period. If there is any question, it isn't done, we've got nothing but time on our side. And counting is not illegal, let me repeat that, I am fully aware that card counting is not against the law.

"How do you feel when you're asked to destroy tapes of such incidents? Or is such destruction carried out at higher levels of management?"

I have never been asked to destroy or "lose" a tape. Ever. I wouldn't do it if asked. We have total control of the video tapes and we're the only one with keys to the door. Not even our GM can come into the room without being admitted by a Surveillance employee - of course the admittance is a given considering, but unfettered access is not allowed.

"How do you feel when a drunken ploppy is allowed to play until he loses every penny he has, but a skilled player is backed off even when playing at a level much lower than the drunken ploppy? Do you see hypocrisy there? Does it bother you? "

Regulation 5 specifically addresses the continued gambling of intoxicated patrons. We interpret the regs in the same fashion that we figure the GCB would - and it's towards strict compliance. It keeps us out of trouble. A fine would cost more than we can rake in off a drunk - besides, I've seen borderline drunks play before being backed off and they are some lucky sob's. Heck we'll save money backing them off from play until they sober up.

So, there you have it. I didn't take your posting as argumentative.

Regulation 5 specifically addresses the continued gambling of intoxicated patrons. We interpret the regs in the same fashion that we figure the GCB would - and it's towards strict compliance. It keeps us out of trouble. A fine would cost more than we can rake in off a drunk ...

You must work in a casino that is different from any I have ever seen, especially about not letting drunks play.

You mentioned Regulation 5.

Regulation 5.011 states: ... the following acts or omissions may be determined to be unsuitable methods of operation:

1. Failure to exercise discretion and sound judgment to prevent incidents which might reflect on the repute of the State of Nevada and act as a detriment to the development of the industry.

2. Permitting persons who are visibly intoxicated to participate in gaming activity.

3. Complimentary service of intoxicating beverages in the casino area to persons who are visibly intoxicated.

These things are done every day in every casino, apparently except for the one you work in.

I find it difficult to believe that casino employees have any respect or fear of the Gaming Control Board, which does so little to protect the public, especially in Nevada. I would guess from some of your previous posts that you're in Nevada, so you undoubtedly know that the GCB is pathetic. Two former Chairmen of the Gaming Control Board are now high-ranking executives in the casino industry (Bill Bible and Steve DuCharme). The former Sheriff, Jerry Keller, whose department has NEVER EVEN ONCE arrested or criminally charged a casino security guard in any of the many violent crimes they have committed against patrons, is now head of security for Wynn Las Vegas. The former police chief of North Las Vegas, and the former U.S. Marshal for Southern Nevada, are now on casino payrolls. The former mayor of Las Vegas, Jan Jones, is a high-ranking executive with Harrah's. A former Metro police sergeant is a surveillance supervisor at Las Vegas Club, where guards killed a patron in 1995, and nothing was done about it. There were no arrests of the guards in the Gold Coast beating case that was recently in the Nevada Supreme Court as a result of the civil suit. The criminal and Gaming authorities did NOTHING.

When a Gaming Control Board agent whose wife is the Director of Surveillance at the Ramada Express in Laughlin actually falsely ARRESTED an advantage player at the Ramada Express without any legal justification, nothing was done to the agent for his blatant abuse of power and conflict of interest. The resulting civil litigation had to get to a federal appellate court outside of Nevada before the plaintiff received unbiased treatment.

And your casino is actually concerned about a petty Gaming regulation? Who would enforce it? The Gaming Control officials are looking for cushy jobs in casinos after they leave "public service." The casino industry's deep pockets, especially in Nevada, have corrupted so many public officials at all levels of government, that government is totally unable to exercise any meaningful control over the industry.

I suppose the view is quite different, though, depending on which side of the table you're on.

It is truly interesting to try to understand the mindset of casino employees. Your post has helped.

I think you exactly are as you profess - a curious, honest (and ambitious) surveillance employee. It is hard to fault casinos for dishonesty when they put a 6/5 sign on the table.

"I seriously doubt that any counter has lost any sleep over joe-sixpack dropping a few hundred bucks without a scintilla of knowledge about the basics of the game ... ."

Actually many counters get distressed and vainly try to help players. We tend to be "nits" who derive no pleasure from gambling and it bothers us to see players exploit themselves. Eventually we realize they like playing and (at some level) understand they will probably lose. And these players are ultimately the source of our profits. We are truly conflicted, offended by the hypocrisy of barring skilled players, yet appalled at the horrible Atlantic City conditions.

Player skill has improved significantly since the 1960's (when splitting Ten's was common). Blackjack books and sites have contributed to this. Consequently casinos need to degrade games to keep their competitive edge. It was one thing to buy mail order books and learn to count in the 1970's. But it is ridiculous to expect huge profits from a trivial plus-minus system on the internet.

Vegas management has historically been insular. I think a bright inquisitive guy like you would do better someplace besides casino surveillance. Typical pit staff illustrate there is no premium placed on game knowledge and intelligence.