First hand out of the shoe: For the house????

Recently more than one player and a couple of dealers at my local shop have announced that the first hand out of the shoe (and some say the last, also)is highly in the dealer's favor. One dealer actually told me the dealer wins 70% of the first hands. A player nodded wisely and responded, "Yeah, the first deck is "for the house." (Hmmmm? I thought they *all* were!)

Hard for me to see how that assertion has any basis in statistical fact, but hey I'm no genius.

I'm not interested in guesswork or hunches, but do any of you math whizzes out there know if there are any *statistics* to back up that claim?

If it matters, the game I play locally is 6 deck and I don't count cards.

Like I say, I can't imagine why the first, last, or any other specific hand would vary in advantage/disadvantage. But I would sure like to know if there is any point in sitting out the first (and last) hands.

Appreciate your insight.

Nobody can pre-determine whether the last hand played will favour the casino or player. Although you dont count the rules of counting still apply,if there are proportionally more high cards left in the deck when the final hand is played then the casino has advantage, if the opposite is true the the player has advantage.

On the first hand out you are at a disadvantage because you make the decision before the dealer and without the knowledge of a count.

Nobody can pre-determine whether the last hand played will favour the casino or player. Although you dont count the rules of counting still apply,if there are proportionally more *LOW* cards left in the deck when the final hand is played then the casino has advantage, if the opposite is true the the player has advantage.

On the first hand out you are at a disadvantage because you make the decision before the dealer and without the knowledge of a count.

I also feel the 1st hand is mostly a dealer hand advantage and usually try to bet accordingly, such as minimun.

also, I try to lower my bet when a new dealer comes in. I know the count. But, there r other factors too.

You said, "On the first hand out you are at a disadvantage because you make the decision before the dealer..."

Isn't that equally true of all hands?

And if I don't count, what does the "count" matter, especially on the first hand in a 6 deck game? So where is the disadvantage on the first hand particularly?

I see your point on the last hand IF you can determine what cards are left, but damned if I can do that in a 6 deck game.

What I hear you saying is you do not have any advantage on the first and last hands (but then without counting you never do), but where is the DISadvantage any more than usual? Why would the dealer win any more than usual?

Not challenging you. I just don't understand.

what do you base that on? Just a feel for the game? A hunch?

Is there any statistical basis for your actions?

Thanks!

it is no more for the dealer than any other hand if you aren't counting.

I thought the first hand out of a shoe always in the dealer's favor regardless of whether you are counting, since in a new shoe there are more low cards than high cards. That being the case, statistically, isn't it more beneficial for the dealer (more likely that the dealer will get a non-busting hand)?

At least, that is what I always understood.

you said: in a new shoe there are more low cards than high cards.

But isn't that theoretically always the case? Do you use up, proportionately, more lower than higher cards as you go thru the deck? Is the LAST hand player's advantage then?

the house edge on the first hand of a six deck shoe and the fifth hand of a six deck shoe are roughly the same. The dealer is no more likely to win or lose the first hand than subsequent hands. The original question never mentioned card counting or deck composition.

Roywil,

The first hand out of the shoe in a 6 deck game is in the house's favor. There needs to be a large amount of low cards come out of the deck for a player to get the advantage. This goes for basic strategy players, card counters, and players of any kind. If you aren't going to count cards, then I would say that it really doesn't matter at what point you enter the deck, though, because you aren't going to take advantage of an opportunity or know that the opportunity exists. Lets say you decide to skip the first two rounds, if the cards go enormously in the house's favor, you will still lose. Unless you are standing there observing the low cards and high cards, and now you are basically card counting, you will always have a disadvantage over the long run. The pitboss or whoever told you that was actually right. Now you can use this to your advantage!!!! Go in when you know that pitboss is working and backcount the cards using Hi-LO and when the pitboss asks you what you are doing, say, "you told me that the first hand out of the deck was in the house's favor." If the cards go in the players favor, sit down. If not, go to another table and repeat.

Regarding the first hand out of the shoe,there are no more low cards then high cards. It would be the same if you are using a balanced count. Once the round is dealt and your able to view the other cards on the table you could then determine if you are at a disadvantage or not. The house will have a 0.53% advantage if the count is 0 in a 6 deck game.

but there seems to be some controversy on this board about that. Thanks for your input.

By the way, I did mention both counting and deck composition in my original querstion: "If it matters, the game I play locally is 6 deck and I don't count cards."

If it matters, the game I play locally is 6 deck and I don't count cards."

Deck composition has nothing to do with the number of decks but the changing ratio of low to big cards. When you said you weren't counting cards that meant that you did not mention that you were counting cards or figuring deck composition (ratio of low/big cards) into your question about first hand out of shoe vs second hand out of shoe.

There is no controversy on this board about it except perhaps in your own mind. The dealer is no more likely to win the first hand out of a shoe, the middle hand, or the last hand.