Fight UIGEA!! -- Action plan for week of 3/26

Are you still tired of having your rights trampled on by grandstanding politicians? I hope you are! Let's continue to do something about it. I hope everyone here will join in to help with the fight. Here's our jointly decided plan for the week of 3/26:

We agreed to target the House Subcommittee on Trade this week. The WTO will be ruling on Antigua's complaint against the U.S. soon (see The Antigua - U.S. WTO Dispute over Internet Gambling); let's put out the word that we expect our country to honor its international commitments just as we expect other nations to honor theirs.

These are issues of fairness, American competitiveness, and freedom. Fairness in that we want other nations to trade freely with us. Competitiveness in that these are our games (the games sure as hell aren't called Isle of Mann Hold'em, London 8, or Antigua Hi-Lo); we should be the ones offering them to the world. Let the WTO break down other nations' barriers as well. China can manufacture and export all the goods they want; the U.S. will recoup it on the vig! And finally, freedom. Americans should be at least as free as citizens of other nations. Seems we're not, as they can play poker at home while our government insists on having our banks (and ISPs if the government had its way) spy on us.

Primary Actions:
- contact Shelley Berkley's (D-NV) office this week (one phone call AND one snail mail letter, plus email if she accepts it from nonconstituents); ask her to to honor our international commitments by either introducing legislation repealing UIGEA or by cosponsoring Barney Frank's upcoming legislation repealing UIGEA. Rep. Berkley is a big supporter of ours, so make sure to thank her for her support as well.

- contact the majority and minority offices of the subcommittee (one phone call AND one snail mail letter)

- contact your representative (one phone call AND one snail mail letter, plus daily emails) and ask him/her to cosponsor Frank's repeal efforts

Additional Actions:
- if you've not yet done so, call Barney Frank's office and ask him to introduce legislation repealing UIGEA.

- write a short letter to your local newspaper about your desire for the U.S. to comply with the WTO.

- contact the two House Subcommittee on Trade members closest to your home and ask them to cosponsor Frank's repeal efforts

- if feeling ambitious, print out letters for your friends to sign and mail

Thanks to everyone who participates. I'm looking forward this week's fight for our rights. Please reply to this thread if you participate. Thanks!

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Prior Action Plan threads (2+2):

Fight UIGEA!! -- Action plan for week of 2/26
Fight UIGEA!! -- Action plan for week of 3/5
Fight UIGEA!! -- Action plan for week of 3/12
Fight UIGEA!! -- Action plan for week of 3/19

Congresswoman Shelley Berkley
2340 Paseo Del Prado, Suite D-106
Las Vegas, NV 89102
Phone:(702) 220-9823
Fax: (702) 220-9841
Email: http://berkley.house.gov/contact/email.html (accepted from non-NV address)

or

U.S. House of Representatives
405 Cannon House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515-4708
Phone:(202) 225-5965
Fax: (202) 225-3119
Toll free: (877) 409-2488

-------------------------------------------

House Subcommittee on Trade
Committee Office: Majority (Democrats)
Longworth House Office Building 1104
Washington, DC 20515
202-225-6649

---------------------------------

House Subcommittee on Trade
Committee Office: Minority (Republicans)
Longworth House Office Building 1106
Washington, DC 20515
202-225-6649 (same for both....not a typo)

Why not just relinquish one's U.S. citizenship?

The issue isn't citizenship; it's residency. Non-US citizens are subject to UIGEA within the U.S., and U.S. citizens residing outside the U.S. (or at least banking outside the U.S. with a foreign address) are not. Besides, I'm a proud American. The UIGEA is un-American. Shouldn't UIGEA be the one to go?

Say I am a resident citizen of Nevada where it's legal to gamble.

I spend my two week vacation in Texas where it's not.

Does being a citizen of Nevada confer on me the right to gamble (illegally) in Dallas?

> .. U.S. citizens .. banking outside the U.S. with a foreign address are not (subject to the UIGEA.)

Are you sure that is an accurate statement? Just wondering.

That was my point :)

If I moved to Poland and opened a bank account there, I'd be able to play online with no banking-related problems (and no UIGEA issues at all).

Hopefully we'll have the freedoms Eastern Europeans enjoy some day.

> If I moved to Poland and opened a bank account there ..

Apparently Poland has no prohibition surrounding on-line gambling so moving there and gambling from there would seem perfectly logical.

Without debating the lawful merits of the UIGEA, it appears the current administration, as well as at least one justice department that preceded them, would maintain that doing so within the borders of the US is not going to be tolerated.

That was my point.

Germany, Holland, Hungary, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, and now it seems France are under investigation (for restricting on-line gambling) by their respective Big Brother, the EU. Isn't some global world organization bitching about Italy also limiting on-line gambling?

I wonder, is the WTO giving these nations the same scrutiny the USA is getting?

The EU. The WTO. The new world order. Coming soon to a neighborhood near you.

> Hopefully we'll have the freedoms Eastern Europeans enjoy some day.

Better enjoy it while it lasts I suppose. I can hear the jack boots coming now.

:) Take care.

Germany, Holland, Hungary, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, and now it seems France are under investigation (for restricting on-line gambling) by their respective Big Brother, the EU.

The EU exists solely, in the minds of conservatives anyway, to remove protectionist barriers to inter-EU trade. In short, it is doing its job here. Not sure what your problem with that is.

The EU. The WTO. The new world order.Coming soon to a neighborhood near you.

If the US doesn't like the WTO then she is free to leave it. I don't think you would like the consequences of that. International trade conventions work to the US's benefit as well as its detriment. The consequences of a free-for-all if, for example, US intellectual copyright no longer counted for anything, would be much more serious than the online gambling issue. I doubt a resurgence in trade warfare would help much either.

Having decided to stay within the WTO then you have to abide by its rulings. The US is just being a sore loser over the spat with Antigua.

UIGEA is highly discriminatory even within the U.S., not just vis a vis other nations. The Interstate Horseracing Act allows interstate, including online, betting on horse races at tracks in several states (all with large electoral votes). Rep. Berkley noted in opposing UIGEA that it is unfair to allow online lotteries and interstate betting on horse racing while barring other kinds of sports betting and games like poker.

The horse racing lobby is so powerful, in fact, that UIGEA contains a special proviso assuring that UIGEA will not alter the horse racing industry's special exemption.

This hypocrisy is coming back to haunt the U.S., as it is the basis of the WTO�s pre-UIGEA ruling against us in the Antigua dispute. WTO rules say a country can only refuse to deal in goods and services that it bans at home. In short, we can't have it both ways. As a result of ignoring the WTO ruling, we may soon see retaliatory trade sanctions from nations much larger than little Antigua. The international community rightly sees America as a bully and a hypocrite.

The obvious solution is to repeal UIGEA, join the other 80 or so nations who have online gaming, and let freedom ring.

DB

I'm not smart enough or learned enough on the world stage to properly lay out my thoughts as some here would like .. so I'll lay them out as plainly as I know how.

When a piss-ant little 25 year old country, who has a grand total population of less than 100,000 folks can reach through the halls of international justice and tell the people of Louisiana, Massachutes, South Dakota, and Utah that they can not pass and enforce law in their own states regarding unlimited on-line gaming, primarily because they allow for horse racing and a state lottery maybe, the train has jumped completely off the track.

What next? A brothel on my street corner because some company in Denmark want's to put one there?

'International Trade Barriers.' Bull-shit. Save that for automobiles, agriculture, and electronics. This is a global shakedown.

So "we don't follow the rules", is that it? Let Antigua prevail. Let them throw up some trade barrier between us and them. We'll see how long that lasts. I can hear you now, "What are you gonna do when the EU comes after the USA?" I don't know, maybe they will, maybe they won't. We'll see what happens if it happens.

One possible solution would be for the USA to eliminate ALL forms of internet wagering .. horse racing, lotteries, scrabble, everything. Won't ever happen, but if it did, I can easily imagine the likes of Antigua still bitching to the New World Order that they aren't able to 'market' to our citizens. Then here come the jack boots to make sure they can.

To be clear, I don't like at all how my government is handling this thing, but I REALLY don't like my states rights being trampled on by some 'country' in the Caribbean that is smaller than the county I live in, has less total population than the city I live in, and that has been soverign less time than I've been married.

I'm a fair minded guy but this is bull-shit. And you hooked by the ass advantage players that are willing to lay down to a cracker-ass little 'international' country on this one just so you can keep gambling from your couch better get prepared for when the next shoe drops .. squarely on you.

Is that plain enough?

When a piss-ant little 25 year old country, who has a grand total population of less than 100,000 folks can reach through the halls of international justice and tell the people of Louisiana, Massachutes, South Dakota, and Utah that they can not pass and enforce law in their own states regarding unlimited on-line gaming, primarily because they allow for horse racing and a state lottery maybe, the train has jumped completely off the track.

I don't see that is any business of the state legislatures what people do with their money when conducting transactions that take place outside the US, anymore than it is any business of my government what I do in Las Vegas. A transaction takes place in the jurisdiction in which it is conducted.

So "we don't follow the rules", is that it? Let Antigua prevail. Let them throw up some trade barrier between us and them.We'll see how long that lasts.

You didn't read my post properly. One of the retaliatory measures being considered by the WTO is allowing Antigua to no longer respect US intellectual property. That will hurt the US economy, badly. The would be able to manufacture any entertainment product created in the US at a fraction of the cost and sell it on at a huge profit.

That aside, it is quite pathetic for the US to set up a system like the WTO (via its precursor GATT) then ignore its rulings when it doesn't find them acceptable. If the US doesn't like it, then it can leave. But, and this does seem to be a feature of this administration, throwing a hissy fit and throwing its toys out of the pram every time an international body makes a ruling it does not approve of is not likely to be to its advantage.

I can hear you now, "What are you gonna do when the EU comes after the USA?" I don't know, maybe they will, maybe they won't. We'll see what happens if it happens.

For the record the EU patently isn't interested because, as you pointed out, several EU members are following the US protectionist stance. The EU could probably act decisively on this matter if it chose to.

To be clear, I don't like at all how my government is handling this thing, but I REALLY don't like my states rights being trampled on by some 'country' in the Caribbean that is smaller than the county I live in, has less total population than the city I live in, and that has been soverign less time than I've been married.

I don't think you will win much sympathy by attacking Antigua. It is a bit like kicking a puppy.

I don't kick puppies and I have nothing personal against the fine men and women of Antigua. If they want to market on-line gambling to the world, good for them, I think they should.

I just don't cotton to 100,000 people in the Caribbean forcing law on the citizens of Oklahoma or Texas under the guise of free trade.

It's bull-shit. It's a shake-down. :)

Take care.

One of the biggest messes on earth. Look at your own country first before you let your emotions override your brain.

One of the biggest messes on earth.Look at your own country first before you let your emotions override your brain.

I'm not sure where you get your information from. I doubt any one remotely knowledgeable about geopolitics would describe England as a mess.

I can assure you, where I live currently isn't exactly the bronx. I occassionally have to dodge the odd witty aphorism but that aside it is a relatively safe and affluent country to live in.

That aside please leave the dumb ultra-nationalism out of it. There is nothing anti-american about wishing to see the US respect the rulings of the free trade organizations it founded. You know, there are lots of Americans who would like to see their government do just that.

Thanks. We miss you at GC as well. Hope to see you back sometime.

"You know, there are lots of Americans who would like to see their government do just that."

Not to mention, a few Canadians.

Need some wood?

Best,
Syph

I have been reading the posts on this Board, but I have been trying these Internet Gaming fights. There was something you said that interested me: One of the retaliatory measures being considered by the WTO is allowing Antigua to no longer respect US intellectual property. That will hurt the US economy, badly. The would be able to manufacture any entertainment product created in the US at a fraction of the cost and sell it on at a huge profit.

So you are saying that they could make bootleg copies of Terminator II, for example, and sell them all over the world ? Or perhaps bootleg copies of MS Windows ?

I agree that this could seriously hurt the US.

I thought I had read that the US was not worried about the trade sanctions, because they did not think Antigua could hurt us much. Do you know where I could do some more reading on this.

So you are saying that they could make bootleg copies of Terminator II, for example, and sell them all over the world ? Or perhaps bootleg copies of MS Windows ?

Yes, that is exactly it.
Obviously any more conventional form of trade warfare would only damage Antigua.

I thought I had read that the US was not worried about the trade sanctions, because they did not think Antigua could hurt us much. Do you know where I could do some more reading on this.

I read about it offline in the Times (of London). I can't seem to find an online link to any details. As I recall Antigua would need WTO approval for this and need to make a formal application, and obviously it is questionable whether they would want to risk provoking the US by doing this, even if this became legal under international law.

That said this is a real possibility. Here is something you will not read online or in the press: I was recently approached by a private consortium who wanted to set up a youtube-style video sharing site from Antigua. They figure that even if Antigua doesn't formally retaliate against the US it is unlikely to bother to police their content effectively. Unlike Youtube, they plan zero compliance with US copyright. That means instead of 3-minute clips like you get on youtube, you will see entire programmes downloaded onto this site immediately after the US networks show them, and films before they are even released.

I chose not to invest, which is probably the worst gambling decision I've ever made, but I think copyright should be respected-this isn't to my mind an ethically justifiable form of retaliation.