Doubling down on soft 21

Illustrious 18 states:

Split 10s vs 5 at TC 5
Split 10s vs 6 at TC 4

My 1st question is, you receive an ace on your first split; do you double down or stand?

2nd question, do you continue to split if you receive 10 cards as long as the TC dictates to?

I haven't gotten the nerve to do this split and would only do it heads up... I feel like I get enough heat as is and this would only add to it...

I also can't stand doubling 10 vs dealer's Ace or 10 at TC of 4 but have done this... It just stresses me out when I do... lol

"Illustrious 18 states:

"Split 10s vs 5 at TC 5
"Split 10s vs 6 at TC 4"

I'll take your word for it! :-)

"My 1st question is, you receive an ace on your first split; do you double down or stand?"

You stand, if you want to be able to walk later on! :-) Seriously, you didn't state what the count was. There are (Hi-Lo) indices for soft doubling A,T vs. 5 and 6 (they're both about +8), but I can't think of anything that could potentially get you thrown out more quickly.

"2nd question, do you continue to split if you receive 10 cards as long as the TC dictates to?"

Same type of answer (first part) as above. Technically, in for a penny, in for a pound. If you're the type who does it if it's "right," then you do it. Personally, I stopped splitting tens ages ago.

"I haven't gotten the nerve to do this split and would only do it heads up... I feel like I get enough heat as is and this would only add to it..."

Then, get ready for the time when you have your max bet of, say, 16 units out, you get T,T vs. dealer's 5, and the count is so high that you split away three 20s to make four hands, make various totals from 12 to 20 on all of them, dealer has ten in the hole (of course), and hits it with a ... six (also, of course!). And, whatever your unit is, you sit there and realize that the swing is 128 units, had the dealer busted. (And, in the old days, splits used to be unlimited and not restricted to four hands. Think about that "fun.")

"I also can't stand doubling 10 vs dealer's Ace or 10 at TC of 4 but have done this... It just stresses me out when I do... lol"

You might use the risk-averse index of +7 for doubling T vs. T, to ease your stress. Or, you might choose not to do it at all. I'll forgive you. :-)

Don

It's an honor to have your reply.. :) I didn't know if it was a regular guy just pretending to be you or not.. But now I know..

Thanks for the info!

Basically all these questions are when I've got my increased bet out there which is when the RC >= +6.

I finally encountered some heat this past trip when I overheard the pit boss explaining to a fellow pit boss, "He'll go 50 hands at table minimum then low and behold he increases his bet (10x) and gets a blackjack...". I was good friends with the pit boss he was talking to and made sure to mention to him (as I was leaving) to look at my last two trips. I've had, unfortunately, two of my worst trips back to back.

Only did it once...playing heads up and getting killed in a very high count.
Split tens against dealer 6. Got a 5 and a 10 for 15 and 20. Dealer had 16 and busted. So if I had not split, dealer would have gotten 21 and I would have lost my 20. The best time to split tens is on a cruise ship, where that seems to be basic strategy. You would probably stand out by not splitting tens.

Besides the count being right for splitting tens, I require two other things:
1. I am playing unrated.
2. I am leaving very shortly

"It's an honor to have your reply.. :) I didn't know if it was a regular guy just pretending to be you or not.. But now I know.."

How? :-)

"Thanks for the info!"

My pleasure.

"Basically all these questions are when I've got my increased bet out there which is when the RC >= +6."

OK, but as you can gather, it matters how much greater than +6.

"I finally encountered some heat this past trip"

As I was saying, ...

"when I overheard the pit boss explaining to a fellow pit boss, 'He'll go 50 hands at table minimum then low [lo] and behold he increases his bet (10x) and gets a blackjack. ...' I was good friends with the pit boss he was talking to and made sure to mention to him (as I was leaving) to look at my last two trips. I've had, unfortunately, two of my worst trips back to back."

I'm afraid it may not matter. Be careful.

Don

There are plenty of people out there that split tens and it is usually frowned upon or looked at as an ignorant decision. Dealers will tell you that people do it all the time. Splitting tens at high plus counts vs 2-6 is positive expectation play. However the attention and the potential heat for doing so is not worth it. When you make a play like that with a big bet out it looks like you know something. An Asian female counter I knew split tens several times with a huge bet out at Caesars Palace just recently and the heat came down hard. Because of bad ID Metro was called in and she spent the weekend in jail. If you want to make this play then split with small bets once in a while. You will call attention to yourself in a positive way but the pit will just walk away and you will buy alot of time. I will split tens if I need to just to get other players off the table. Try it..it works.

Splitting tens at high plus counts vs 2-6 is positive expectation play

Most of your posts here are basically correct but some lack in precision.
I would consider TC +7 a high count but even here it's still a loss of ev to split tens against a three let alone a deuce.
I split tens occasionally against five,six or even four but in my 10000 hours career I can't remember having done so against a deuce (index beyond +10) and very rarely against a three (Index +8)

Francis Salmon

Because of bad ID Metro was called in and she spent the weekend in jail.

How did the casino get her ID? Was she forcibly backroomed and the ID physically taken from her? If so, I hope she has contacted an attorney, preferably Bob Nersesian, to sue the casino and possibly Metro.

They asked and she just showed it forgetting that the ID didn't match the players card. The ID was not hers. I am not at liberty to explain further however an Attorney was contacted. Some times people do stupid things under duress. Always be prepared when entering a Casino and try not to do things that call attention to yourself when betting big. The big bets are always under observation.

YOU POSTED:
"Most of your posts here are basically correct but some lack in precision.I would consider TC +7 a high count but even here it's still a loss of ev to split tens against a three let alone a deuce.
I split tens occasionally against five,six or even four but in my 10000 hours career I can't remember having done so against a deuce (index beyond +10) and very rarely against a three (Index +8)"

MY REPLY:
I only stated that the expectation is positive at high counts. That is a true statement. It was not my intention in the post to teach. As you know there are strategy decision indexes for each dealers up card and these numbers my be different depending on what count is being played. Just because you have not encountered the decision against the dealers 2 or 3 does not mean that it will never come up. Keep playing.

I only stated that the expectation is positive at high counts.

That the expectation for splitting tens is positive is a no-brainer. But this expectation has to be MORE positive than for just leaving the 20. Against two or three, this is only the case in astronomic counts.

As you know there are strategy decision indexes for each dealers up card and these numbers my be different depending on what count is being played.

I don't see what you mean. It's very simple. Split if the TC is equal or higher than the index, otherwise stand.

Francis Salmon

Sorry to confuse you . What I am stating is that splitting tens is a positive expectation when the true count reaches a certain index and that index is not the same number for all count strategies. Example: split XX vs 4
Revere Ten Count= +7
Revere Point Count= +5
Uston Advanced Plus/Minus= +3
Uston Advanced Point Count= +7
Snyder Zen Count= +13
Wong Halves Adj/Aces 4DK= +6
And so on....
Most of these strategies have decisions for splitting vs 2 or 3 and the numbers are not astronomical. A good rule of thumb would be TC+10 or more vs dealers 2-6. However as Don has recomended and common sense says not to do it if you want to stay in business.

An unwritten law on this site says that unless stated otherwise any data refer to Hilo which is still the most used system.
But regardless of the count system you use, my point stands:Against two or three these indices are so high and occur so rarely that it's useless to bother about.

A good rule of thumb would be TC+10 or more vs dealers 2-6.

We must have different thumbs! But anyway, the merit of indices is precisely that we don't have to use our thumbs.And I repeat: for six and five its much lower(less than +5) than for smaller upcards.

However as Don has recomended and common sense says not to do it if you want to stay in business.

I don't think Don is so categoric on this. Otherwise he wouldn't have included 10/10 v 5or6 in his I18.Of course you have to consider the particular heat situation. And the increased variance is also a point.
By the way,I'm using the 10-splits quite liberally and I'm still in business.

Francis Salmon

Only idiots and experts split 10s-

Keeping this in mind, the only time I have split 10s was in a situation when I knew I was going to get another 10 and had made enough funky plays to qualify as an idiot. Later, when playing just off the count, I also split 10s.

They asked and she just showed it forgetting that the ID didn't match the players card.

Perhaps reading the material linked below will be helpful to her. I hope she eventually gets a large payday from the experience.

Your players card says you are X and your real ID says that you are Y. Once you have a players card you are under no obligation to show the casino any ID as long as you stay within the parameters of the law and are willing to do without comps or other free stuff that the casino can require ID for you to redeem. If you have a novelty ID that says you are X you should leave it outside of the casino and if they demand ID tell them you don't have it on you. All they can do is ask you to leave and if they search you all they find is your real ID and you now have a + EV situation because you can sue them.

I don't know about you, but if they search ME, well, I've always wanted to own a casino.

Cobbson