Dice Control / Speed Count

On 01-04-04 I started a thread (Dice Control: Get Real Get the Feel/ Long) discussing this very thing. The group offering this service is doing it to help themselves (and the casinos) to your money. It is voodoo, bad-bad medicine. Save time, save money, buy a book, study it, practice what you learn, go broke a few times, keep coming back for more. Remember: less than 3% of ALL advantage players make money. If you go to these seminar you get what you deserve. I have no ax to grind. I just hate bull*hitters and con artists.
No decent dice crew will just sit by and let you slide, scoot, helicopter, loft or in any way control the dice. Hell if your real good you might even get arrested or backroomed. Remember what the NRS says; Any person suspected of committing a felony may be detained for the purposes of notifying a peace officer (Gaming). Whether they arrest you or not is irrelevant you will be in their system from that time on. Notifying a peace officer negates the liability of the hotel.
I just can't believe the crap people buy.
Remember what Darwin Ortiz said in one of his books
"you can never cheat an honest man".

and you know it. As to SC it is a lazy players count system that will most likely perform poorly.

Most Casino craps table crews do not catch on to what is happening until they have taken a good dump. This takes place day in and day out all over the world, skilled players taking the casino. Surveillance can't even begin to follow the action on a craps table.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it.

Iggy.

Just make sure you get a players card so you can get those offers and comps. Most craps crews do not care, like other professions the professionalism is gone. At the least back in the day you would get your hands popped with the stick, at the worst you would have woken up in the hospital. The very idea that you can learn to control the dice after a two day seminar is dishonest. These people who sell this bunk are no better than tele-marketeers. So Iggie be like Big Julie used to be, attend these seminars then offer the suckers a junket package to come to Las Vegas and play craps. Hell the casinos may just send a jet for them. That way you can make some real money.

"Remember: less than 3% of ALL advantage players make money."

I am curious as to your reasoning for this statement. I have met a few people who are advantage players and most of them are making money. Sure there are a couple people I know who usually overbet their bankroll or give away their advantage through tokes or their addiction to playing non-advantage games, but I would still argue that they are making money when they are really advantage players.

If 97% of advantage players aren't making money than I really doubt that they are really advantage players in the first place.

You give some of the reasons why they are not advantage players in your post. An advantage player makes his/her living playing. This includes but is not limited to the following: Health care (insurance), room, board, utilities, cable/satellite, travel expences, airfare/hotels (when not comped), etc. An advantage player pays for all this and more. He scouts the games, gets players cards in different names etc. The people you describe are the bread and butter of the casinos, why? Because they do not possess the bankroll, discipline or intestinal fortitude do what it takes to win. You say most of them win, please explain you mean they don't lose? Hogwash! The 3% is a ballpark figure. I used to think it was less than 2%. But the teams are getting better at hit and run play, plus the casinos are truly out of touch. The good guys you never hear about. Again re-read your own post because for the life of me I really don't know what you are saying.
Type then drink, don't drink then type :)
As far as henry, frank etal. are concerned what they are selling is B.S. I'll bet on it.
"If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is"
Again "You can never cheat an honest man"

"You give some of the reasons why they are not advantage players in your post."

Yes but I only said a couple of them. Many do not give it all back in tokes or overbetting their bankroll. There are quite a few who play and make money.

"An advantage player makes his/her living playing. This includes but is not limited to the following: Health care (insurance), room, board, utilities, cable/satellite, travel expences, airfare/hotels (when not comped), etc. An advantage player pays for all this and more. He scouts the games, gets players cards in different names etc."

It sounds like you are confusing the term advantage player with professional player. There are lots and lots of advantage players who have a regular real life job but still manage to put in anywhere from 100 - 700 hours of advantage play every year. These people make money. They play with a positive expectation (including expenses).

"The people you describe are the bread and butter of the casinos, why? Because they do not possess the bankroll, discipline or intestinal fortitude do what it takes to win. You say most of them win, please explain you mean they don't lose? Hogwash!"

I admitted that there are many people who think that they are advantage players who are not really playing with any sort of advantage when you throw in tokes, expenses, and non-advantage play. But there are many who only play part time but do play with an advantage.

"The 3% is a ballpark figure. I used to think it was less than 2%. But the teams are getting better at hit and run play, plus the casinos are truly out of touch. The good guys you never hear about. Again re-read your own post because for the life of me I really don't know what you are saying."

If you do not understand what I am saying why should I reread my own post? I understand what I am saying.

"Type then drink, don't drink then type :)"

You should be taking you own advice. :)

Your the one who said that only 3% of advantage players make money. Almost by definition, if people are not making money than they are probably not really advantage players. Maybe only 3% of advantage players make their living off of advantage casino play, but there is still a much larger percentage who still play with an advantage (even after expenses).

Like I said, it sounds like you are mislabeling "advantage players" instead of "professional players". A person can still be an advantage player and not make their living at the game.

The players you say have an advantage will be losers in the long run for just the reasons I posted. Professional players are advantage players right? I mean how can you be a pro without an advantage. There are people who for a time can play with an advantage and not play professionally. But eventually they will lose for just the reasons I posted. There is NOT ONE SINGLE advantage player who has not gone bust at least once or has had an extended losing streak. I guess the difference between the advantage players (pros/bankroll,nerve) I know and the weekend warriors (who cares if I lose I still have an advantage) you know is this... one split hair and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Good and good cards to you and yours.

"Professional players are advantage players right? I mean how can you be a pro without an advantage."

Strawman. Nobody ever said a pro wasn't an advantage player.

"There are people who for a time can play with an advantage and not play professionally. But eventually they will lose for just the reasons I posted."

This is where you are wrong. Absolutely wrong.

There are plenty of people who have $20,000 or $30,000 (or even way more) stuck in some money market or low risk mutual fund to use as a bankroll while they play part time. They make money playing because they have low overhead. They live within driving distance of AC, Mississippi or some other venue. They play 100 - 700 hours a year between their real jobs and make money playing. They are advantage players.

"There is NOT ONE SINGLE advantage player who has not gone bust at least once or has had an extended losing streak."

Sure everyone has had extended losing streaks, but that doesn't mean you are going to go bust if you are properly bankrolled. Besides, since a part time player has a regular job, they have more resources to pull them through and survive losing streaks. A part time player can afford to see his bankroll dwindle and perhaps lower his betting level because he doesn't need the income from playing to survive.

"I guess the difference between the advantage players (pros/bankroll,nerve) I know and the weekend warriors (who cares if I lose I still have an advantage) you know is this... one split hair and hundreds of thousands of dollars."

Weekend warriors don't necessarily lose! There is nothing that says that just because you do not play full time, you are going to lose. If you have the advantage (including expenses) and are properly bankrolled you will win money in the long run whether you play full time or you play part time.

I hate to keep hounding on this, but I would hate it even more to see some one discouraged from counting because they get the impression that because they don't have a ton of money in the bank or the ability to spend tons of hours playing full time that they will lose.

A player can win in the long run even if they start off with a meager bankroll. They should start off playing locally at the lowest limits they can find, keep adding to their bankroll with outside income. Read all of the information they can about advantage play, keep careful track of their wins, losses, and expenses. Eventually the player will either save enough money or catch enough of a positive swing that they will have enough of a bankroll to move up their level of betting at a reasonable level of risk.

Sure they might not make a ton of money playing part time, but it can at least pay for itself and more. It is hard to find a hobby that actually pays money.

Why not have the best of both worlds! A steady job and income with all the benefits afforded in having a straight career, and, a weekend hobby that can bring in extra money and entertain you at the same time. That money, (Weekend Warrior), can easily be enough to cover a fair portion of the monthly expenses of owning a home, car etc.

Plus, I think the "Weekend Warrior" sleeps much better at night than the so called "Pro's".

Regards,
Iggy.

Congratulations, you sound like somebody who have actually played the game instead of quoting EV,ROR, SCORE etc. or some dreamer who wants to be a full time pro with $500 bankroll!

Buccaneer