DD versus shoe

I am travelling to vegas (Fremont area) in a month and I need some advice:

I can effectively count 6-deck shoe games (hi-lo, catch22, fab4). I am wondering whether it would be worth my while to learn (over the next month) double deck, or if I should just stick to shoe games in downtown Vegas. Is the EV signifacantly better with double deck. Also, I wish to play $5 to $10 minimum tables and average bet spread. I will be playing Monday, Tues, Wednes if this matters in terms of available games/limits.

Thanks in advance.

learn to play DD.

Face down play is different than face up. At a crowded table, I have sometimes have trouble getting all the cards.

You want to try to sneak a peak at the players cards before you male your playing decision. BUT I sometimes have trouble keeping track of which cards I have seen and which I haven�t. You will get ploppies who sometimes flash their cards, and sometimes don�t.

One solution is to play with as few players as possible. Usually head-on is best. But for low-stakes players (such as those who read the Free boards), this is not always possible

Revere has a passage in his book regarding the order in which cards are counted exactly to avoid this confusion.

This comment isn't directed at you, MathProf, but as a general observation. When I learned to count cards there was not a plethora of source information. There were essentially four sources: Thorp, Wilson, Epstein, and Revere. If a player wanted to understand the game he was familiar with all five printed works (Beat the Dealer has a '62 and a '66 edition).

I frequently see comments by beginning players that indicate they are unfamiliar with the work of pioneer authors. There are blank spots in their understanding that can only hurt them. They would do themselves service by reading the serious work on the game published before 1970.

I disagree to some extent..For example: If you are long on experience,
in command of 50 or more variations, and can determine the best game
regarding pen, number of players, spread and ramp, then give it a try.

Other questions that come to mind...How good is your systems playing
eff.? How good is your gambling act?

Visit Binion's and play their SD game. Played there multiple times last week, RO6, DA2, DAS, etc. Really decent game. Also play graveyard to avoid the crowds. You can get heads-up early in the morning...

For DD the Plaza had the best game I found.

I maintain a very precise order for counting the cards for the _real_ running count. If I see my neighbor's cards, I will use that info for playing decisions, but I use the "real" running count and always count the same way:

dealer's up card.

My 2 cards.

Everyone's hit cards or if they double, split, or get a 21, their cards that are turned face up. Then the dealer's hole card and hit cards, and then the face-down cards for each player as they are exposed (except for mine).

That way I _never_ get confused about what I have counted... The "temp count" is easy enough to deal with for a quick playing decision, then back to the real count, get it updated, and be ready to bet the next round quickly...

I played a lot of hand-held games this past week and greatly prefer the ease of counting myself...

Thanks for all the great responses!

Coincidentally, last night I believe I found the only double-deck game in my state. It was a $10 min table, about 60% pen, using a cut card, and dealt from a shoe. I ended up dropping $140 in a half hour, but almost all of that was on high count/big bet losses (bad luck). I was spreading 1-4. I was under-bankrolled, but it was a good learning experience and I enjoyed the process of the game and how the true count had a much quicker and greater swing than 6-deck.

I found it actually easier to count than the shoe game, and I used the method that SSR described for counting the cards.

One thing that puzzled me though: There was at least one other card-counter at the game. I watched him jump his bet from minimum ($10) to $50 on a loss! (The TC had gone from zero to +4 in that round.) I always thought it was a no-no to do that?? Was he asking to be backed off, or is this okay to do? Also, should I have even played this table with another counter there?

Thanks, Theo

at the table, your behavior depends a lot on the normal action they see. For example, I played at a place or two in Laughlin where I got noticed a bit more with my $5-$40 type spread, where in Vegas I was totally ignored. I even played where I bet the count perfectly, and not a word, not a glare, not a "cheques play", not anything.

Several here have said, more than once, "at the red chip level, just play the count." Seems to be good advice at least at the places where I play. For example, in a DD game at the plaza, I was spreading $5-$50 (!!) but another guy was playing $50-$200 which sort of got me lost in the noise... :)