Cover needed at LV low limit BJ?

First a bit of background....

I've read books on basic BJ strategy. In general I don't remember the advice and since I live in LA I don't play that often. I also like to drink. So only the simplest of counting systems would work for me. Its basically +1 for 2-7, nothing for 8 or 9, and -1 for face cards as well as -2 for aces. I attempt to account for how far into the deck I am, and generally start with a $10 bet off the top, drop down to $5 in negative counts, and progress my bets by $5 for every +2 in the count. I really have no idea if this counting actually works, but its fun and its the only one I've been able to learn. It does seem that I have hit many more BJ's in positive counts, particularly when highly positive. I've used this for about 6-7 years....maybe 100 sessions at BJ. I have no idea if I win or lose, and generaly just play for fun. No ones ever complained about it and I've spread as much as 1 hand at $5 to two hands at $60. I'm blatant about it. I should note that I only play in Vegas and that Slots O Fun did go from a DD dealer giving 90% pen to a dealer dealing two hands off a DD.

So last Thursday me and my buddy went to 4 Queens for a $6.99 prime rib and then over to ElCo for some decent BJ. I sat down at an empty DD game with a $5 min, bought in for $200 and went to it. Ordered a Corona and the pit critter-lady took my players card. Dealer was going 80% in and I was damm skippy about that. After about 20 minutes or so another pit critter came along. He did not replace the other pit critter but rather sort of eagle eyed my play. At the time I was in a sick minus gazillion deck that stayed at that. So I had flat bet $10 off the top and bet $5 the rest of the way. Pit critter was still eyeing my play, and I really thought nothing of it. I didn't ever thing anyone cared about someone betting at these levels. So anyway, a few mediocre decks and I get a great count off the top. Like 15 babies or something. Anywho, I start escalating my bets and get a +11 with like 40% of the deck left(so like +6). I throw down $30 and lose and the count goes to a true +12. I throw down a $40 bet and get dealt 20 while the dealer gets an Ace showing. I take insurance. I lose. The dealer pulls up like Ace2 and a couple more babies for a nutcrushing 21. I hear eagle eyed pit critter comment to a now 3rd pit critter that "he got very unlucky". At this point I was 4 Coronas deep and couldn't have cared less.

I weep inside and still throw down $35 because of a decent count. I hit a BJ to salvage something. Next hand is uneventful and dealer collects the deck. At that point I put out my typical $10 off the top bet and the eagle eyed pit critter walks over and points at my bet and says "Thats your maximum bet from now on". I ask him if he is serious. He says yes, and I rack up and leave.

Frankly, its not that big of a loss. I'm a very good long term winning poker player and quiting BJ and craps would probably do me a lot of good(but they are so darn fun). However, I am kinda disapointed to get a bad name at what is probably the best DD game left in Vegas. I dunno, I guess I could provide cover(drinking multiple Coronas isn't enough?), but it seems rather ridiculous to do that as a $5 min player.

You said the dealer got an ace/2 and pulled a couple more babies for a "nutcrushing 21". I hope "nutcrushing" isn't what I think it is. OOUCH.

You said your minimum was $5 and your max was $40. That's a 1-8 bet spread which is to high for a double deck game. Most books say the bet spread for DD should be 1-4 or 1-5. You probably got noticed because your spread was to high.

Some pit critters aren't tolerant of counters at red chip levels because they know it's only a matter of time until the counter progresses up onto the green chip level then onto the blackchip level. They don't want you using their table as a training ground.

There's a pretty good book written on the subject of camoflauge called "Burning The Tables In Vegas", by Ian Anderson. You should get it.

1-8 spread at the EC may be too much for them to tolorate, but in a play-all DD game 1-8 is appropriate, especially if starting with 2 units off the top since that is an overbet to begin with.

Frenchman

Most books say the bet spread for DD should be 1-4 or 1-5.

I've never read this anywhere.

Here are the SCORE values for the El Cortez game based on the spread (according to http://www.qfit.com/cvcxonlineviewer.htm):

1-2: 4.53 6.59
1-3: 20.43 29.76
1-4: 35.82 52.18
1-5: 48.92 71.26
1-6: 59.63 86.86
1-7: 68.43 99.66
1-8: 75.86 110.47

First number is playing one hand, second number is playing two hands

Bryce Carlson, in his book, "Blackjack For Blood" says to use a 1-4 spread on the double deck games

Fred Renzy in his book "Blackjack Bluebook 2" says on page 172 to use a 1-5 spread on double deck.

Rick "the night train" Blaine, in his book "Blackjack Blueprint" says to use a 1-6 bet spread for double deck

Frank Scoblete in his book "Golden Touch Blackjack Revolution" on page 24, lists 1-4 as conservative and 1-5 as "aggessive". If 1-5 is aggeressive, then 1-8 would be more than aggressive.

IMHO, your "act" can work elsewhere but not there. They're pretty paranoid. It's usually a 45 minute stop kind of place. When you go back there with different critters, throw back a shot of booze and chase it with your beer, and see if they quit watching you. They might for a while, but they'll be back! I don't like to jump around myself but I had about an hour before an appointment last time in town so I dipped in mid-afternoon, knowing their reputation. I could only take the scrutiny for about 30 minutes before I left. They really do breathe down your neck, even with the red chips.

Most of those books were written when penetration at double deck was much better than today's crummy games. In a typical game nowadays, often a full deck is cut off, necessitating a wider spread to make playing worthwhile. Few, if any, serious double deck players now play with less than a 1-8 spread; 1-10 or 1-12 is common as well.

The El Cortez and Four Queens are nasty sweatshops that stupidly throw out many people, even lousy players who just get lucky. Don't worry about those dumps. At the tiny stakes mentioned, "cover" is not affordable and is not needed at real casinos.

1-8 in DD is not excessive IMO. Hell, I've done 1-16 at a DD game before and didn't get tossed. It wasn't in Nevada though, and it wasn't red chips!

The guy can't afford any cover at all if he's playing reds. Especially the Ian Anderson type of cover.

Just go in and play an "A" game and as Turtle says, fuck'em if they can't take a joke!

The SCOREs in my previous post were for HiLo I18, 2D, H17, DAS, 3/4 penetration, like found at El Cortez. This is among the best you will find; at most other casinos, the SCORE will be much lower. IMO, unless you are head ups against a very fast dealer, you not playing a very strong game.

Although the books you note are respectable, may I suggest you add Blackjack Attack to your library.

When the books mentioned were written, there was a plethora of good double and single deck games. 75% penetration in double deckers was the norm. That isn't so nowadays. If you are playing for low stakes, 1-4 or 1-5 spreads won't even get you minimum wage earnings. You have to pump it up. Playing black, you can do a lower spread and still earn fairly well, although your risk is increased in the process. I would also go along with the recommendation that Ian Andersen type tactics are not meant for red or even green players. You have to give it your best shot. If you get the hook, so be it. Go somewhere else.

As for the El Cortez, it is a sweat joint pure and simple. Slots A Fun isn't much better.

It should be common knowledge that being identified as an AP is the kiss of death for any Las Vegas store. And do you think for a moment that you can ditch the heat by sitting down at a Spanish game? They will sweat you there too-regardless of how you play. Ploppies don't draw to a 5-card 15 against a three nor do they surrender 17 against ace. If you do this stuff in conjunction with a healthy bet spread, you are asking for the dreaded tap.

I have a copy of Blackjack Bluebook 2 where Renzy advises a 1-6 spread for the double deck game. He goes on to say that "average" pen would be a 42 card cutoff and that a 1-5 spread would be the "bare bones" minimum with decent rules.

You should be spreading 1-8. If you use any cover (like off the top) you need to spread more like 1-12.

My opinion is that how much you spread in a game is a little confusing for a new player reading a book so the authors tend to give a generic spread amount that works.
Factors such as the penetration, the rules, your act and the levels of heat and expertise at the game by the casino staff, need to be understood to really have the proper spread for a game and even then you are never sure you can get away with it. Basically, the books are simplified.

Experienced players might spread 1-6 at one DD game and 1-12 or even more at another, I believe there is no real set standard that must be followed.