Counting in Vegas

Havent been in Vegas for a few years. Any single or double decks out there? Is downtown still the best place?

Las Vegas now abounds with lousy blackjack. Carnival games like Super Fun 21 and 6:5 single deck "badjack," which pays only 80% on a natural are taking over. Continuous shuffle machines and poorly penetrated shoe games are infesting the Strip. While there are still a few good games to be found among the wreckage that was once Las Vegas blackjack, it has gotten to the point where it is hardly worth the trip.

Paranoid casino managers, mindless corporate executives, and the bean counters are near to winning, but when they declare victory, they will find that there aren't as many beans as there used to be. Removing good blackjack games from Las Vegas would be like filling the Grand Canyon with sand. Once they are done, what is there to go for? The wonderful desert climate?

The largest casinos reported a net loss of 33.5 million for year 2002.
The following list of profits should be a message to the powers to be that something has really gone haywire over the past few years:

2002 - <33.5> million
2001 - 554.4 million
2000 - 496.8 million
1999 - 876.6 million
1998 - 1.134 billion
1997 - 1.102 billion
1996 - 1.355 billion
1995 - 1.277 billion
1994 - 1.210 billion
1993 - 1.146 billion

Their collective decision to ravage the game of blackjack obviously would not be the only factor, but it certainly contributes to the overall decline of profits for the large casinos. Gamblers use to visit Las Vegas for a good gamble for their buck, and they would return often. The tourists that get fleeced at the crazy slot machines, the carnival table games and the cheap imitation 21 games take it in the shorts one time and say enough of this crap.

Harrah's outside of San Diego opened this past year, totally embracing the new fleece the tourist philosphy. All eight decks or CSM's, crazy slot machines and stupid "rip'em a new one" table games. By my veteran gambler standards it was not a casino, rather a beautiful fleece joint. The crowds came and the crowds have gone in a few short months. They recently introduced a couple of double decks and cut the eight decks to six decks. Maybe, just maybe someone made a command decision to introduce gambling into the casino.

The greed and stupidity of the executives is truly amazing. Do they really believe that when all vestiges of a casino disappear into a jungle of crazy symbol slot machines that the tourists will continue to trek to Las Vegas to see a $100 show?

The corporate types have convinced themselves that people will come to Las Vegas to shop and see no-name production shows, star impersonators rather than real stars, laser displays, fancy fountains, and erupting volcanoes. They won't, not in the long run. They go to gamble. If the gambling isn't any good, they will stop coming. Even the dumbest ploppy will eventually figure out that he is getting fleeced. When he does, Las Vegas loses its attraction. After all, he can go get fleeced at the nearest riverboat or Native American casino. He doesn't have to fly to Las Vegas to feel like an idiot.

Las Vegas, are you listening? Offer them good games and they will come. Sure, some of us will come along too, and make a little money at your games, but for every one of us, there are 10,000 of them. Drive us out and you lose the 10,000 as well.

they had a loss because of 9/11.there wasnt enough money to go around.its not because of bj.dont have tunnel vision.the world doesnt evolve around bj.

9/11 doesn't explain that. The farther Las Vegas gets away from its roots, the less of a destination it will be. Horrendous heat in the summer, and windy, wet and miserable winters won't be made up for by fighting pirates. It's the gamble that counts.

and then maybe you can see that the peak was in 1996. I also said that blackjack was a factor, not the determinant. If you care to respond on target you might choose to address whether or not you believe the gamblers of the world will continue to endure the ever increasing house rake at the tables or machines. You might address whether or not the tourists will make frequent return trips to play the "put 45 coins in, receive 27 back" funny symbol slots. If you have something to offer to the discussion I eagerly await your contribution.

Note that more and more casinos have opened around the country in the last 5 years. People no longer have to go to Vegas to get action, be it good or bad. I think it just proves the point somebody made that folk go to Vegas to gamble and all the pretty stuff is simply extra.

Gambling houses of all sorts, big and small, are getting closer to home. Everyone's home. Gambling is no longer a social stigma. Communities gradually accept it and the mayors see the income benefits from taxes and visitors. The map in the U.S. and abroad show steadily more and more casinos popping up left and right.

So, Las Vegas has to try harder. You said "horrendous heat in the summer, and windy, wet and miserable winters". That's right. So why would someone wanna go there if it was just "for the gambling" ? That someone is able or will soon be able to gamble somewhere nearer to home than Vegas. Soon he will be able to gamble also from his computer, legally and with few restrictions.

This is like the movie houses that had to offer something beyond just the ol' movie, something better in ambience, cleanliness, sound & picture quality, etc, in order to make the patrons get out of the house and buy a ticket. That ol' movie could be rented or watched on TV, you know.

Bottom line : Very few people, IMHO, will be deserting Vegas because the casinos there will be offering "poor gambling" (in the sense of offering unbeatable games). Other, more important factors are at play for the general public.

--Cyrus

first of all,you dont go from 550 million in profit to a 33 mill loss because of bj or anything else.it had EVERTHING to do with 9/11.number 2:gambling in mississippi was approved in,i think 1994, and then new orleans a year or 2 later.as MISS. started to add hotel rooms it took away from vegas.peopel used to save up to go to vegas 2 or 3 times a year.since 94,there have been casinos popping up everywhere.cali, which was a huge market for vegas, opened up more and more indian casinos.hence, the steady decline since 1998.it took 4 or 5 years for all the markets in the us to mature.they said on tv that everyone is at least 90 minute from gambling.vegas will always be a destination for fun but it will never be the only place people go.

With that in mind, your comments; the fact that the blackjack and other table games and their playing conditions are in quick decline along with many of the machine games, are there any alternative games which might be profitable in the long run to the skilled player?

Would craps be a good choice, or how about Baccarat? If played correctly with the optimum strategy at the right machines with the right payoffs and right demoninations could the slots and video poker machines be a prospective commodity, a beatable game?

In my mind I would have to say that people will always continue to play and gamble albiet at a loss in an unfair game with poor rules, because no matter how bad things get somebody will still have to win sometime and when that person does win, everybody else will think I could be next. And as you probably know psychological studies already tell us that most people who do go to play actually expect to lose but simply hope to have a good time doing so, while of course taking that shot at winning big. And why not, it could just as well be me right? And lastly, after all else is said and done, Vegas is a place for vacation and relaxation not just gambling, it was just gambling that put it on the map.

I would be interesed to know your thoughts on the matter, that of the tourists and if they will continue to gamble with the deteriorating house rules shall we say. After all we have to play to win, and we have to play the game with their rules and can only win if we can beat them at their own game. To my knowledge there is no other way to take their money and get away with it, or is there...?

P.S. Please don't mind the punctuation, I've been studying far too much blackjack and not enough of the english language to correctly know its prosody, syntax and other considerations but I hope my ideas came across all right. Alright?

The entertainment available in Las Vegas, along with the heretofore unmatched opulence of its casinos is what sets it apart from most other gambling venues. I can't argue with that. However, it is still frosting on the cake. You gotta have the cake, and gambling is the cake for Las Vegas.

By the way, good to see you posting here again. We all wondered where you were over on GC.

I found Vegas last year was no better than many games I have around the Twin Cities area in Minnesota. My travel agent told me she could not find any packages from Minneapolis to Vegas for under $800.00. I was shocked. She said the big hotels have been taking it on the chin. So expect few comps,high table limits, and unafforable enterainment. If that is what you enjoy then yes vegas is still the best. Otherwise come to Minnesota and do a snowmobile run.

While this thread has been amusing, as the original user to post this thread, I must say one thing.

No one has answered my question.

My questions were where I could find single and double deck games? Which casinos still offer them?

Will someone answer this for me?

I am sure we can debate the future of Vegas until we are six feet under. Bottom line is Vegas is not going anywhere. Good BJ may die, but Vegas never will.

The only thing that will ever challenge Vegas will be when the new computer-literate generation begins to throw away their money on the computer. Internet gambling is going to become the crack for a whole generation of gamblers.

But Vegas will never die because it is simply entertainment. People will always pay for entertainment.

Single-deck - Horseshoe, Las Vegas Club, The Plaza

Double-deck - Imperial Palace, Mirage, Bellagio, Monte Carlo, Stardust, Treasure Island, Golden Nugget, Circus Circus, Four Queens, Fitzgerald's

Not a complete list by any means, but enough to get you started.

That looks like about the same offerings as a few years ago and 5 years before that.

Why do people say the games are deteriorating?

How many of those SD or DD games have $5 min?

The difference between now and five years ago is that the hand-helds are fewer, and the penetration on the two-deckers is worse. The penetration is worse overall, and many pits are now giving up space to carnival games. Not only that, but the heat is on and the pits are more paranoid than ever. At the more posh places, the double-deckers are basically used to catch card counters.

As for table limits, you will find $5 tables downtown. It is harder on the Strip. You might find some $5 two-deckers at Circus Circus. You can get $10 limits at Treasure Island during off-times, and you will probably find $10 tables at the Imperial Palace. The Mirage and Bellagio are going to have either $25 or $50 minimums.

no longer offers single deck (8 deck fake single deck only)

Bigplayer, who gets there more often than me, offers an example of exactly what I am talking about.