Cost to casinos of their abuse of skilled players --a local's perspective

Sometimes casino personnel behave in such a ridiculous manner. Some small-minded pit critters and their low-level supervisors frequently seem incapable of understanding the big picture of a casino�s operations, and through their actions, cost the casino far more than they save it by abusing skilled players.

Granted, casinos is general are over-paranoid when it comes to �protecting� their games from winning players. While eye-in-the-sky surveillance and much of the �game protection� supervision is really there primarily to help prevent cheating by players, cheating by players in collusion with dishonest employees, and employee theft, the net is usually cast too wide, and ensnares patrons who are no real threat to the financial well-being of the casino. When casino personnel antagonize these patrons, and antagonize other patrons who may simply witness the often boorish behavior of the pit critters, the casino loses in the long run. I suppose the arrogance casinos acquire simply by being in a business where people just walk in off the street to hand over their money for very little, or nothing, in return takes its toll on the mindset of the employees. This mindset serves to encourage employee behavior towards patrons that would not be tolerated by the management of any other type of business enterprise.

To many Las Vegas residents, the facilities and amenities offered by casino properties are utilized for far more than just the casinos themselves. The two primary locals-market operators, Station Casinos, and Coast Resorts, have pleasant and well-maintained properties that include children�s play areas (Kids Quest and various arcades), many fine restaurants, first-rate movie theatres, bowling alleys, and even an ice-skating rink. Of course, the real purpose of these offerings is to lure the adults into the casino, prolong their visit to the property, and to get youngsters into the habit of going to the casino, and thinking of the casino when they�re seeking �entertainment.� However, these ancillary operations can be, and undoubtedly are, themselves quite profitable, and contribute significantly to the overall prosperity of the property. For example, movie ticket prices and refreshment prices are no lower in casino-based theatres than in non-casino theatres.

The point of all this is that bad behavior of pit personnel which is tolerated, or even encouraged, by casino management, is short-sighted and a poor business practice. Why is it so difficult for upper management to realize this, and stop the petty abuses?

For every skilled player they chase off, they will chase off the family members, friends, and acquaintances of that skilled player. For example, my wife is a competent basic strategy blackjack player, but isn�t the least bit interested in learning counting or other advantage play skills. Though she �wants to win,� she plays primarily �for fun.� She, of course, will be a losing player in the long run, and should be a �valued casino customer.� In addition, she sometimes plays slots (ignoring my repeated objections), and, of course, loses at them, as does everyone else.

Why does the casino want to chase her, and many others like her, away? They probably really don�t want to. But they do anyway, with their frequently ill-advised and downright stupid behavior towards skilled players.

When they hassle me, or any other skilled player, in an unreasonable manner, I will, of course, remember it. I have no quarrel with reasonable backoffs that are done professionally and courteously. While I may disagree that it�s necessary to back off any player whose max bet is $150.00 or less, the casino is certainly within their rights to do so. But casino management frequently appears to be so short-sighted, and so blinded by their own greed, that they seem to want to turn every patron upside down and shake them by the ankles until ever last penny falls out of their pockets. Stupidity is often the result.

In Barry Meadow�s book, Blackjack Autumn, he quotes highly-regarded former casino executive, author, and casino consultant Bill Zender, "Too many people in this industry sweat the games, and that makes the players uncomfortable. These corporations get scared if one month your hold is a couple of points lower than it usually is, and they start panicking. But usually, it�s just the fluctuations of the game. ... But if you run the game right, you�ll actually make more money than if you�re wasting all this energy on trying to stop counters.� Mr. Zender was referring to the poor penetration virtually everywhere, and the harassment of red and low-green chip level skilled players that is seen so often nowadays.

Even among skilled players, only a small percentage has the time, tenacity, and bankroll to be a real threat to the casino. So why all the ridiculous harassment and stupidity?

Stupidity is a pit critter trying to renege on a coupon offer, and argue with a patron about a net difference of $12.50 (see �Sunset Station tries to cheat couponomist out of $50.00,� Green Chip 11/9/02).

Stupidity is a shift boss speaking to a well-meaning ploppy who got involved in a poorly-executed backoff, and referring to card counters as �scumbags� (see �Green Valley Ranch shift boss calls counters scumbags . . . ,� Green Chip 4/4/02).

Stupidity is a pit critter refusing to accept a single bet, with an Expected Value of less than $5.00, from a player who had never even played a hand at that casino (see �Gold Coast backoff story,� Free Archives, Vegas BJ, 9/1/02).

Stupidity is a casino using security guards to bully a high-rolling ploppy who was mistakenly identified as a skilled player (see �The Reno Hilton Blows a Barring,� by Harold Harvey, in the Acts and Barring section of Green Chip Archives).

Stupidity is the overuse of personnel and resources in trying to eliminate all the skilled players, regardless of their bet levels, from among their patrons (see �Cost of Catching Counters,� by Ky Hick, in the Acts and Barring section of Green Chip archives).

Skilled players have family members who are NOT skilled players, and ARE �desirable casino customers.� They are shocked and disgusted when told about the overzealous behavior of the pit personnel, and usually agree to take their patronage elsewhere in the future.

Skilled players have friends who are NOT skilled players, and ARE �desirable casino customers.� They are shocked and disgusted when told about the overzealous behavior of the pit personnel, and usually agree to take their patronage elsewhere in the future.

Skilled players have business and professional contacts and associates, who are NOT skilled players, and ARE �desirable casino customers.� They are shocked and disgusted when told about the overzealous behavior of the pit personnel, and usually agree to take their patronage elsewhere in the future.

Skilled players have neighbors, and members of community groups they belong to, who are NOT skilled players, and ARE �desirable casino customers.� They are shocked and disgusted when told about the overzealous behavior of the pit personnel, and usually agree to take their patronage elsewhere in the future.

Whenever casino personnel abuse or unreasonably mistreat skilled players, the consequences of their actions extend into a much wider circle than they may initially realize.

UPPER-LEVEL CASINO MANAGERS, WAKE UP! CONTROL YOUR EMPLOYEES!

The last time my group had its convention in Las Vegas, I distributed a pamphlet which was a small primer on the best games to play and how to play them. It was very well-taken and I received many favorable comments from the convention attendees.

Next time, I may just put out a list of casinos to avoid. Our convention has more than 6000 delegates. Once you add up guests and family members, there are a total of around 20,000 folks who come into town with this convention.

As they say, don't get mad, get even.

as long as they fill up the games, why should they care?

... that their line of customers is infinite. I don't think it is.

and they can continue for a while yet,until more casinos come online, by buying up other casinos,and limiting our places to play. Because gamblers lose so much money, management incompetence can last a long time. Vegas had it all at one time, but because of their attitude competition is coming on strong. We players are telling our politicians, 'let's have local casinos and keep the money and jobs at home', and they're now addicted to the revenues generated. Incredable amounts of money that were once headed to Vegas. The dessert will reclaim the land from the casinos there, and they'll have no one to blame but themselves.

I'd only make the trip to Vegas, if they sent me an advance on my winnings. There are so many places to play, that Vegas doesn't even register on my mind.

Las Vegas has transformed itself from gambling destination to vacation destination. The days of cheap rooms, cheap shows, and cheap food are gone. The rule these days is to squeeze every penny out of everything. Once the suckers are there, they will gamble.

Only a tiny fraction of the population is even aware of Advantage Play, much less involved in it. So they don't care.

You may discount the threat from cyberspace casinos but I assure you the terrestrial casinos do not.
The public may not be aware of advantage play, but it knows that if it gets a $100 free chips and pays no money on airfare or other expenses it is on to a good thing.
LV immediately after 9/11 was a lonely place to be.

"You may discount the threat from cyberspace casinos but I assure you the terrestrial casinos do not."

John... I like you. For a while, I had some doubts about your "ramblings" on online Blackjack. I STILL have never tried it... BUT... I DO see the possible benefit due to bonuc hustling.

Kinda funny... I first thought of it as a "meager" wage way to play Blackjack, but... you have a GOOD chance at a big win, also a good chance of a big loss... but a long term "positive expectation" Small potatoes... maybe, but... the main point being, YOU DO IT IN YOUR UNDERWARE at YOUR convience. Seems great for practice.

You make a GREAT point I hadn't considered!

"The public may not be aware of advantage play, but it knows that if it gets a $100 free chips and pays no money on airfare or other expenses it is on to a good thing."

Yes... I follow that. Common sense, right? May help to keep those land based casinos "honest" with a good game and good rules.

Without skilled game surveillance, the casino chumps are actually flushing away even more money by chasing off people with $$$. In my opinion, next to the wanton moron would throws around money without the skill of an outhouse rat, the casino's best customer is the card counter who's only skill is counting: I seen numerous players who count but don't know how to bet or way beyond there bankroll, only to ruin before gaining.

I would encourage people who think they can count to come to my casino, and the take would go up!

I have, on occasion, made a spectacle of myself while being backed off. Usually I just leave quietly, but if the pit critter is being a real jerk, I can be a real jerk too. The look of terror on the pit boss's face is priceless when you start screaming to everyone who looks your way about how they are throwing you out only for winning. Continue to rant and point at ploppies and warn them that if they actually learn how to play a winning game, they too will be thrown out! Tell them loudly that the only reason they're welcome here is that they are losers! Then leave quietly.

I don't recommend this tactic for those who are easily intimidated, or those who play regularly. This sort of behavior will cause you to be remembered. But once in a while it can lower one's blood pressure and help one's psyche to unleash one's innermost true feelings. :-)

The net difference is a drop in the ocean. The joints don't care if your wife or friends a shocked and never return. If their figures are the same and the amount of ploppies are same, they won't care.
If numbers drop over time they will get a marketing and advertising company to get people in the door again.
The cat and mouse will always be. The staff are told from day1 we are cheats and scum, and thats all they know.

"Continue to rant and point at ploppies and warn them that if they actually learn how to play a winning game, they too will be thrown out! Tell them loudly that the only reason they're welcome here is that they are losers!"

That's hilarious.

When I'm ready to completely "retire" from the game, I may well do this a few times. :>)

--LVBear584

"The staff are told from day 1 we are cheats and scum, and thats all they know."

. . . you're probably right.

Kinda funny... I first thought of it as a "meager" wage way to play Blackjack, but... you have a GOOD chance at a big win, also a good chance of a big loss... but a long term "positive expectation" Small potatoes... maybe, but... the main point being, YOU DO IT IN YOUR UNDERWARE at YOUR convience. Seems great for practice.

Revolting imagery aside:), I'd take a look at some of Mathprof's work on expenses in the GC archives to see just how much damage expenses can do to a red-chipper or green-chippers bankroll. It is educational and depressing.
This is why I continue to recommend non-counting approaches for small bankrolls, which is most people. They don't have to be online neccessarily, but they do have to be low-variance (eg poker, coupon hustling, silver mining etc).