Casino edge in CBJN

When I play BJ, I often have a choice between DD and 6D depending on the casino I choose. According to CBJN, the edge for a DD is .53 and a 6D is .26. I would spread 1-4 on DD and 1-6 on 6D. Since players tell me I should play DD whenever possible and avoid 6D, would that still be true in this situation? In general, I guess I am asking if the casino edge listed in CBJN is the sole determinate for which game is better to play.

Usually I recommend the opposite...play the good six deck and avoid the double deck. Six deck is usually better than 2D for the following reasons..

1. You can walk away from horribly negative count shoes.
2. You can play with virtually no cover with more staying power on 6D
3. You can spread very big (1-6 are you kidding...how about 1-20)
4. The off the top edge at 2D is often not much better than 6D due to rules being worse.
5. 6D is faster and for higher stakes it's easier to get a virtually heads up game
6. The casinos watch 2D more closely
7. Many casinos have lower theoretical comp rates at double deck (even though their theoretical win at 2D is often higher). Monte Carlo, for example, requires 2x the action on 2 Deck to get the same comp level as Six Deck.
8. Mediocre penetration on 2D makes the game tough to beat...especially if rules are also bad.
9. Cheating is an issue with handheld games. (Yes even in Las Vegas)

Assuming a "normal" game, with standard rules (including 3:2 blackjacks, double on any 2 cards, etc.) the house edge is not the most important thing you look for in a blackjack game. For example, a single-deck game will often look better on paper than most other games, if house edge is the only thing you look at. However, if the penetration is lousy, if the table is crowded and slow, or worse yet, crowded, slow and only one hand is dealt between deals, and if you are playing for higher stakes, then you probably wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. The same can apply to double-deck games. As Big Player pointed out, six-deck games have much to offer. There are times when it might make sense to play pitch games, but they often have little to do with the house edge.

I like DD for one main reason. The spread is smaller, which means that I can play a "less dangerous" game when I walk in with say $500 to play a single session. Spreading $5 to $100 risks a quick exit with a $100 max bet, where a decent DD game would see me top out at $30-$40-$50.

I certainly agree about the penetration. To a pure BS player, the best house edge is the game to play. to the counter, penetration is way more important. I've seen DD games with 50% penetration. That is just not playable. Of course I have seen 6D games with 50-60% penetration as well, which is just as bad.

SD is a bit harder for me to find. Bigplayer gave me some pointers here a couple of months back about good SD (3:2) games in the southeast, but for the one I have tried a couple of times to be playable just about requires mid-week early morning playing to avoid a crowded table which kills SD.

Another point is that given the choice of a $5 DD table, or a $5 6D table, assuming reasonable penetration, I prefer the DD game for a couple of reasons. The lower max bet as mentioned above, and the lower standard deviation the DD game provides as well, which limits bankroll "swing" better. (note that before anyone chimes in with SCORE and the fact that I ought to bet a bigger unit at the DD game, I'm not going there. This degraded to a did - did-not discussion on AP.com that went nowhere. I'm talking purely about betting a unit of $5 on either game, using the spread necessary to beat the game with that same unit. With that constraint, I personally prefer DD.)

bigplayer is clearly correct about "heat". SD games are watched more than DD, which are watched more that 6D. So given the choice of a high-heat DD vs room temp 6D, I'd play 6D. But it is possible, at my betting level, to play DD with little attention. On occasion I have bet green ($25-$100/$200), and on two occasions I ventured into "black" on a lark. But I'm not a black/purple/yellow bettor, and will never draw the kind of attention BP is talking about unless you talk about a couple of hell-holes like the BC in Vegas or maybe elsewhere. Some places give you heat just for standing around a SD/DD table. :) I don't play those. :)

Just my $.02 from someone that once played a lot of 6D but who has been playing much more DD in the past year. For the new counter I will also add that the myth of hand-held being tougher to count is just that. I personally find it easier to keep up with a hand-held game because it goes a bit slower. 6D with 7 players and a fast dealer can go quickly...

To a pure BS player, the best house edge is the game to play. to the counter, penetration is way more important. I've seen DD games with 50% penetration. That is just not playable. Of course I have seen 6D games with 50-60% penetration as well, which is just as bad.

Game speed should be a key criteria for all players, but especially for a basic strategy player. In fact, I think it is more important than the house edge. Unlike a card counter, who wants to put in as many hands as possible, a basic strategy player should look for the exact opposite. Poor penetration and crowded tables should be a primary criteria for a basic strategy player. A full single-deck game might be the best alternative, assuming comp levels are the same for all games in the house. However, if faced with a heads-up single- or double-deck game while there is a crowded six-deck table with a slow dealer and lousy penetration, the basic strategy player should choose the six-decker, even if the house advantage is greater.

For example, suppose you are in a casino that offers single-deck, double-deck and six-deck games. Suppose you are a basic strategy player betting quarters. The double-deck game offers a house advantage of .35%, while the advantage on the six-decker is .56%. All things being equal, the two-decker ought to be the better play. But, all things are not equal. This house also happens to give more comp credit for the six-deck game. On top of that, when you are in the casino, you see that the double-decker only has one player, while there is a six-deck table with five players. But, with two players at the double-decker, you are likely to see about 125 hands per hour, while at the six-deck game, you will see around 55 hands per hour, perhaps less if the folks at the table are talkative. The lower house advantage at the double-decker is overcome by the game speed when comparing the two games. The best bet for the basic player is the six-decker, even if comps are the same at either table. The slower game means a slower rate of loss.

As for betting and risk, I believe one should use his max bet as the criteria for determining his bet spread and not individual units, but you said you didn't want to go there, so I'll respect that.

For a anything but a short, hit-and run type trip to LV or other major venue, I usually use the following screening process using an electronic copy of CBJN (imported into Word as a table):

1. Screen out poor targets by deleting all sf21, 6:5, fake 2-deckers, and csm's, etc., also $100 mins, etc, as I am a low roller.

2. Screen out games with poor reported pen, typically for me, >1.5 6D, >1.0 2D, and >0.5 1D.

3. If any games with noticeably poor rules ("edge") were not screened out in Step 1 above, toss them now. At this point, I usually flag games with late surrender and S17, as these will usually reflect better "edge" numbers.

4. Using your proposed spreads for each type of game and your bankroll, use bjstats.com to calculate a Win Rate and Score for each game surviving on your list.

5a. If I am riding the bus and using shoe-leather to get around, I sort the games by Downtown, Strip, and off-strip, to make the planning of each day's route easier. (This is done to cut down wasted travel time; ie, hit all downtown on some days, the Strip surrenderland on some days, and outlying off-strip on others.)

5b. Sort the table by Score.

6. Look at a balance between Score and Win Rate to pick and prioritize your targets. This is usually simple to do, and obvious; for example, the SD game at the Western might have a great Score, but the level of max bet at that venue (reflected in bjstats.com by the bankroll you assign for that game) will result in a relatively small Win Rate, compared to a venue such as the south Strip, where higher betting levels will be tolerated.

7. Plan your schedule to find as empty tables as possible. On the south Strip, this will mean the time slot from about 2am to 7am, although six-deckers may start to fill up with early-bird retired ex-military types and other counters; I can tell you from experience, that if you "sleep in" and miss the depths of the night, table crowding during the day will ding you badly. Downtown times are generally from 2am to 9am or so. Drawbacks to this timing are that some of the tables with better conditions will be closed, and if you stick religiously to this script, you will start looking familiar to pit staff, so you will have to mix up your schedule with play on other, more crowded shifts.

That's a bare-bones outline of one possible approach. With this approach, it is important to have some familiarity with what the practical aspects of different betting levels are. For example, a ten-dollar two-decker, spreading 1-8 has a win rate of about 1.7 times that of a five-dollar six-decker, spreading 1-16, for the same bankroll and ROR. etc. etc.

Good luck,

:: ::

1. Slower is better, although that is not something the average BS player thinks about. I've seen way too many that actually believe they can "beat the house" and when they believe that, speed is not a primary factor to them. Or they think like we do and say "more hands means I win more per hour..." Otherwise I think I would play a crowded table, and choose a 6D carnival game with side-bets like lucky ladies or whatever. The last time I sat down at one of those kinds of games, I almost went crazy with all the delays caused by paying off hands (the game I played was a combo BJ and 3-card poker, where the player's 3-card poker hand was his two up cards, plus the dealer's up card.)

2. Max bet is a reasonable criterion as you said, but the problem can be that max bet isn't good enough. For example, I like to play DD with a 40-50$ max bet when I have family with me as they will play at that level also. But while I can find a table with a $5 min for most any game, finding tables with a $2 min is not so easy, which means a 6D with a max of $50 really needs either aggressive wonging, or a $2 min to provide a spread that will make any money at all... Now I have certainly done some "group wonging" but it is not very easy except for early morning. Hard for 3 to wong in on the same table. :)

I think that once a card counter becomes serious enough, the bet spread and max bet idea becomes second nature. But when this first came up, it was asked by a beginner. I can't say I have watched a _lot_ of beginners, but I have watched quite a few, several in my family. And in general, they sit down and have a min bet in mind no matter what the game, from BJ to 3-card poker. I tend to irritate the hell out of them, because I make notes about the rules, and penetration (I frequently do more scouting than playing, especially on the first day if it has been months since I played there) and then go back to my room to check out things with CVCX to develop a plan of attack for the best game (according to CVCX) that I found. Then I know what my min/max bets will be, the best ramp, etc. But I don't believe "beginners" do that, which was my point...

BTW it is not easy to convince a BS player that they need the slowest game around. They are playing because they believe they know enough to beat the game. Telling them otherwise is is one thing, convincing them that is the truth is something else entirely. I know. I've tried. My son has won every time we played except for once, in the past year. (he has probably played maybe 6 trips with me). You should try to convince _him_ that he can't win. :) Particularly when 4 of those six trips I won way more, but on two of them I lost money. (don't pay attention to what I do, pay attention to what I say doesn't go very far at times...:) )

about "reported pen". For example, I have seen a DD game with reported pen of 50%, but when I watched, the dealer was giving 75% pen or better (one dealer). When his replacement came on, back to 50%. The point here is that it is always worthwhile to check games out in person as much as possible, multiple times, per shift, multiple shifts. You never know what you might find...

Now if time is limited, your idea makes good sense as it makes better playing use of your time. We're going to try to take a trip to the MS coast in a couple of weeks. I plan on doing a lot of "pit cruising" the first day to see what (if anything) has changed since I was last there...