Card Counter Litigation in Pennsylvania

Many of you may know me through my posts of years gone by. Others may not know me at all. I am an attorney in the Philadelphia area and a blackjack devotee. To date, no one has raised and fully litigated in the Pennsylvania courts the issue of whether or not a casino may unilaterally and arbitrarily refuse to deal the game of blackjack to a customer. We all know that the casinos routinely do just that when they believe that a customer is a �card counter� or otherwise has a long term statistical advantage over the casino. And in a great many cases they have little or no evidence to support that belief. (�When in doubt, kick em out�) It is my opinion that the casinos do not have this right in Pennsylvania and that the chances of getting the courts to confirm that, although certainly not guaranteed, is substantial. Similarly, there are open issues in Pennsylvania with respect to the circumstances under which a casino may �evict and exclude�.

Quite recently, I was barred from playing blackjack at Parx Casino. I personally know others who have also been barred and I am sure there are many more than those I personally know.

I am in the process of preparing to file suit in Pennsylvania to hopefully resolve the issues of barring, eviction and exclusion. I have not yet decided on the precise form that the action will take.

The purpose of this post is to seek out others who have been barred at Parx or any other Pennsylvania casino who would be willing to be named as plaintiffs in the proposed action and who would be willing to testify under oath regarding the circumstances of their barring, eviction or exclusion. I will handle all of the legal work pro bono.

If you are willing to at least explore joining in with me on this case, please contact me at parxlitigation@gmail.com. Exploring the possibility obviously does not obligate you to go forward.

I am sure there will be many comments in response to this post, both for and against the concept. I suspect some will argue that this suit is a fools folly and that all that I will accomplish, even if successful, will be to make the Pennsylvania games as bad as those in New Jersey where Ken Uston successfully pursued an action like this so long ago. To those people, I understand and respect your point of view, but I don�t agree with it. Other than what I just said I do not, at this time, plan to engage in a public debate about the pros and cons on this or any other forum. I already have at least one plaintiff (not me) willing to go forward with this case and therefore the case will go forward whether others join or not. I will be glad however to discuss the pros and cons with those who respond privately to this post. Thanks and good cards to all.

May all the dealer BJ�s occur when you have 16.

only pennsylvania casino I played at was the Sands in Bethlehem. Rules are excellent but pen horible. I believe this is one of the very few casinos on the east coast with dd, so it is expected to be watched closely for card counters. I played the high limit pit spreading from $100-500 and few 2 x $500 + wonged out on a some bad counts and just moved to the next table.

I have been around long enough and I could see the progression as the boot was coming When the suit tapped me on the shoulder, I just said "it is time for me to leave and headed for the cashier". So technically, I did not get backed off but I am sure they have me recorded as such and if I went back and used the same player card I would be backed off in less than 2 minutes.

I imagine your success would depend on how strong innkeeper laws are in PA. That being said, what if you succeed, should smokers then sue to be allowed to smoke in restaurants, since they shouldn't have the right to refuse them service?

Thanks for sharing your experience in Sands. From you I've learnt the simple yet powerful tag phrase of APs:

"It'z time for me to leave and headed for the cashier."

It'z a great way to avoid a confrontation, backoff, or backrooming :-)

Next time when you go back to Sands, just "borrow" a rating card from one of the 100 hustlers.

In Missouri they have had blackjack since about 1994 and the casinos are prohibited from barring a card counter. and the casinos are making money at bj and they offer decent blackjack.

They can and will take countermeasures. Sometimes very quickly and sometimes as extreme as 25% penetration and/or lowering table limits to $100. These are all reasonable and effective countermeasures that achieve the same casino goal as barring. But the at least the player has rights and is not treated like a criminal. The burden of fairly putting these measures in on the casino.

I think the system in Missouri is how it should be in other states like PA. It seems reasonable in every state except Nevada (where the casinos are too powerful of a lobby).

IF someone smokes in a restaurant that has banned smoking for the health of their patrons they are creating a disturbance. The restaurant has a legit reason to refuse them service or even evict them from the premesis if they continue to smoke.

I know of no blackjack in the United States where the official written rules of blackjack place restrictions on a players skill or on their ability to change their bets within the limits posted. The casino doesn't back you off because you violated any rules, they simply tell you it's "a business decision" or they "don't like your style of play". Card Counting has never been against the rules of blackjack anymore than mentally figuring pot odds before deciding to bet, raise, or fold is against the rules of Poker. Card Counting (skillful play) creates no such disturbance.

Most states have conflicting laws regarding the right of casinos to bar. Casinos are highly regulated public amusements and there are laws that protect the right of the public to access these amusements. I don't know the specifics of the case in PA but I'd guess that gaming has initially said casino's can bar for whatever reason they want and there are state laws on the books from decades prior which disagree.

By that logic, all the casino has to do is post a sign at the front door that says "No advantage play" and they are good to go.

How you gonna prove it without being able to read someones mind? Even a computerized skills check does not give a casino 100% certainty that a player is an advantage player, it only gives them a pretty good idea, probably enough to backoff someone (the old business decision). Proving someone is counting cards, esp if they limit each session to 45 to 90 minutes, is virtually impossible.

I wish that you would not be self-serving and challenge casinos with litigation. Many of us here accept the potential for being backed-off and told "no more blackjack". All of what many of us do here and at casinos will all be worthless if more people pop up and challenge casinos with litigation. The game will be worthless for AP's eventually.

I suggest that you simply just get over it, accept it and learn how to beat the casinos at their own game. It's part of the enjoyment of the process and we all continue to enjoy this thing that we do.

I remember when I was a novice counter - I had exactly the same mind-set as you. I realize your motivation, especially given that your an attorney. If you win your case, yes you win something, but the rest of us lose.

First, Ken Uston sued Resorts Casino and won; thus, AC has a no barring policy. At least APs would not get abused by AC casinos.

Next, DoctorBj and Companies will sue Parx Casino just like Ken Uston. If they win, APs will not get abused in PA casinos.

PA casinos have abused APs for years, and PA gaming agents routinely look the other way at abuses in PA casinos.

For example, Some APs have received tickets by certified mails for first degree trespassing at PA casinos. The trespassing APs may be jailed up to 6 months, and they may have to pay up to a $500 fine.

Now what if DoctorBj gets caught trespassing in Parx Casino? Going to jail up to 6 months may be a disbarment for him. So, I say to you Doc, go for it. Sue Parx, and if you win, Pa will have a No Barring policy too.

Or, you could just not go back to a casino after you are barred. Then you won't have to worry about a trespass ticket. Granted it's been several years since I was in the business, but the only APs who got fines in MO and MS were the ones who refused to leave after a cop told them to and were arrested for being idiots, trespassing was just the official charge.

PA Gaming actively work with the casinos to help them find out who players are and are involved directly in the process of 86ing players merely for having the nerve to bother to learn how to play the right way.

Of course that gives you a chance to personally sue the gaming agent when they're working on behalf of the entity they are charged to regulate because they lose their immunity.

You are trying for a homerun when you should be going for a base hit. If the Gaming guys are commissioned officers, and the casino tells them they have asked you to leave because you are an "undesirable" (the catch-all used in the biz), then they will kick you out. You have no recourse against them since they are acting in good faith. Better to go home, take a deep breath, then call a lawyer the next day and go after the casino if you want to. You should actually be glad the gaming agents are involved, they'll take a statement and open a file at least if you dispute it.

Maybe in 1970 it was difficult to prove someone was counting. Today, not so much. You would be surprised how good a simple excel graph looks showing a direct correlation between bets and counts after 2 or 3 good shuffles on a double deck. Hell, if you play 6 deck they can figure out your exact edge against the house after 1 shoe. Unfortunately, APs need to keep a low profile these days, or find something besides counting. Otherwise, you will go the way of the Dodo.

Gaming agents are an anemic lot. Holding sway for the casinos is their signature.

Another tired, unsupported comment from someone who, apparently, has very little knowledge of the gaming industry, if any.

constructed a federal money structuring case against a well known winning advantage player? So there is a problem in Missouri.

Yes I read about it. Player cashed out small pieces to avoid cashing out >$10,000 at one event at Ameristar. Not sure if I would call that "constructed" - maybe targeted unfairly because he was a card counter, but the rules about CTR apply to all players.

Was a verdict ever reached?

You can have a strong suspicion but that isn't the level of proof a business should use to tell one of it's potential good customers to get lost. If you only show your min/max spread a couple of times it's highly unlikely that any casino will have enough information to back anyone off unless they're one of those many paranoid properties. There are also team betting strategies that will defeat any skills check of an individual player.