Call Off Jihad Against Casinos?

For years I felt like waging Jihad against casinos because they are evil lying cheating scum. Now I'm more ambivalent.

Back in the Thorp days casinos were indeed run by (organized) criminals. They drugged Thorp's drink, brutalized counters, cheated players, stole money from stockholders, and (much) worse. Now they are corporate and I own stock. Even worse, my Jihad seems a miserable failure. I told people about the evils of negative EV, but the casinos are still filled. Forget about Spanish blackjack, there are still people playing Roulette and the Big 6 Wheel! Eventually it dawned on me they are not there to win, they are there for entertainment. Now, I might prefer they find healthier activities like exercise or art. But gambling is a cheap, nonpolluting activity like video games, reading science fiction, or trading Pokemon cards.

I read posts criticizing Olaf Vancura (or even Karel Janecek!) for casino affiliations. This is silly. Just because Olaf shared a blackjack system with you doesn't obligate him to forever refrain from casino employment! Similarly most of us respect Bill Zender and welcomed exchange of ideas regardless of his switch from regulator to manager to gambler. I think the crux is dishonesty and conflict of interest. It is dishonest of Michael Barnett to entrap counters to promote his game protection services. And it would be problematic to have Zender (the manager) on certain closed pages that discuss his game weaknesses. Self-deception and gambling addiction is an unfortunate side-effect of legal gambling. And the public is occasionally mislead about their prospects. This means we should work toward better disclosure, not disdain the entire gambling service industry.

O.K., so all casino employees are not scum. You might even date a dealer. So what's the problem? The problem is our Jihad has been too successful. The public has improved, and blackjack holds have consequently declined. Therefore the game conditions have deteriorated to compensate. Card counting is an easy and socially useless activity. You can't expect casinos to subsidize you forever. I see outcries against barrings. Fine, maybe the world should convert to Atlantic City conditions. The world could more productively employ the talents of a few surveillance people and card counters. The surveillance guys could get other comparable jobs. And most card counters don't make much money; they could find other profitable hobbies. The big losers would be the public who like unfettered handheld midshoe-entry games.

So puhleeze stop whining about barrings, especially small players. You only deserve your winnings if you have some rare ability. At one time counting was rare and rewarded. But there is a limit to casino charity. Now the winners must have the skill to evade detection or tolerate barrings.

Winning advantage play, including card counting, is not easy, it's difficult. And I think card counters, especially sucessful ones, provide an extremely important public service.

All cultures maintain psychological escape routes to help keep their oppressed members able to cope with the relentless coal digging and car making and paper pushing that is the fate of most of us.

We (card counters) are the underpinning for one branch of our culture's fantasy life. The thought that someone can actually beat the corporations gives release and hope to multitudes.

"So puhleeze stop whining about barrings..."

I rarely hear players whining about the actual barrings. It is the nasty overkill of having people escorted out by uniformed security guards, illegal "detentions," attempts to intimidate people by demanding identification; backroomings, illegally distributing personal information about patrons, revocation of comps, throwing people out of their comped rooms in the middle of the night, etc.

All of the above are normal and common behaviors of casinos. It is disgusting, and would not be tolerated by the public or by the politicians, if attempted by any other types of business enterprises.

There would be a huge public outcry, for example, if a car dealer threatened to arrest, and then strong-armed off his property a customer who, through his negotiating skills, had "gotten too good a deal" on his last car purchase.

Or if a fast-food outlet ran an advertisement for "two cheeseburgers for the price of one," and then bullied and threw out any customer who actually tried to "take advantage" of the offer.

Very few serious players object to barrings per se. It is the loathsome manner in which these barrings are frequently carried out that is the cause of their hatred of casinos.

I appreciate Radar's point. Blackjack became popular precisely because it can be beaten. But let's face it, the reality has always fallen short of the Ken Uston James Bond fantasy.

My college friend worked in a pizza shop with "Buy one, get one" coupons. Many customers expected a second free pizza, and were quite disappointed to buy one and get ... one.

Most guys I know who get barred richly deserve it (e.g., DD'). It is just the cost of doing business. Bad backoffs don't happen frequently to red-chippers.

Everybody appreciates the hypocrisy in casino barrings. But the alternative is clearly bad games. It is certainly a noble concept to advocate unbeatable games to minimize card counting and surveillance, especially if you benefit personally. Is that what people here want?

One of your sub-themes appears to be that we've been too successful at improving the skills of the public, resulting in a deterioration of the games. A couple of weeks ago on BJ Green, there was a proposal for a brochure targeted at the general gambling population. Would you consider this a bad idea?

I thought your post was a joke until reading your reply below.

Back in the Thorp days casinos were indeed run by (organized) criminals.

They are still criminals. Just in corporations. Look no further than the stories where they rip off high rollers after they have blacked out, or the recent multi-million dollar judegement against PPE in which they forged markers.

They drugged Thorp's drink,

You don't think they drug people now? Don't push alcohol on people too drunk to stand up?

brutalized counters,

You and I both know people who were beaten up in the last year or two.

cheated players,

Preferential shuffling goes on every day.

stole money from stockholders, and (much) worse.

This probably happens, we just don't know about it.

Eventually it dawned on me they are not there to win, they are there for entertainment. Now, I might prefer they find healthier activities like exercise or art.

If people can afford to flush their money down the toilet, good for them.

But gambling is a cheap, nonpolluting activity like video games, reading science fiction, or trading Pokemon cards.

Yeah. Just go to a "Pokeman anonymous" meeting and tell them your theory. Reading science fiction has not bankrupted as many people and screwed up their lives as much as gambling.

If you are serious about this post, you must not be spending much time in casinos. You would see people with serious gambling problems ruining their lives. You haven't talked to enough casinos hosts who show you that "genuine casino love".

Math Boy

Thank you for your thought-provoking post. However, I am not sure the context within which it was made. What motivated it? Was this a response to some of the other post on this board, or is this simply a new stand-alone post.

Now I have never been a "Jihad" kind of guy. But I do think I differ with some aspects of your post.

First you raise the issue of casino employment, and comment on criticism of Olaf and Karel. I was someone who was very vocal in the recent controversy over Karel, and I don't think you post reflects the position that many of use took there. I was not complaining about Karel's activity per se, but about RGE's whole attitude toward the issue. They do not permit the Masters to post on this website, but they apparently didn't care if they worked for casinos. As I recall you were 86ed from that group for putting up a post over here, but no-one raised any issues regarding employment for the other side.

What made this more serious was RGE's previous "holier than thou" attitude towards casino spies on other Web sites. In the face of this criticism, Do escalated the hype, claiming their masters were holier than Griffin, Wong, Snyder on this issues, giving some answers to some questions, and then refusing to discuss it any more.

Olaf is obviously a different case. Bashing Olaf is not part of my agenda, and I won't discuss it in detail. Except I will say that there are some more issues involved there.

I think your comment

Self-deception and gambling addiction is an unfortunate side-effect of legal gambling. And the public is occasionally mislead about their prospects. This means we should work toward better disclosure, not disdain the entire gambling service industry.

Is a serious understatement. I think there are many players who think they can make money by gambling. I think the industry systematically encourages this idea. Read the propaganda they put out. "We wan't you to Win!" "Winning starts here!" etc. Nowhere do they say "If you know how to win we will kick you out."

They flatter their big losers by calling them "good players". How many times have you had a floor-person or a host try to get you a room saying "We try to take care of our good players".

I also to discuss your comments on barring. Barring of lower stakes players do happen, and I believe they are getting nastier. Casino illegally "flyer" people who are barred, and distribute information about them through Griffin and Biometrical. At one time, it was only practical to do this to big players. But now, even green players are getting some of this treatment.

Nasty and Illegal barring do occur, and anecdotal evidence which I have collected suggests that the threshold for this is coming down as well.

Now I do agree that "Jihad" is not a good paradigm. I think there are counters whyo delude themselves into thinking that by decreasing casino profits, they are doping something good. Our impact on their bottom line is negligible. Indeed, to the extent that boards like this show a positive side of gambling, we may actually be helping the casinos.

Kim Lee Wrote At one time counting was rare and rewarded. But there is a limit to casino charity. Now the winners must have the skill to evade detection or tolerate barrings.

I beg to differ...counting is still very rare, and effective counting is even more extremely rare. I go to Las Vegas and almost never see another advantage player. What has become less rare are casinos that aren't overly paranoid about advantage players. The typical Las Vegas casino sees advantage players everywhere and in fact there are very very few. You are right, winners must have the skill to evade detection or tolerate barrings. Unfortunately this skill is becomming more one of playing with no camouflage (because it doesn't do any good with today's computer evaluation) but playing sessions too short for the casino to be sure about your skills.

What has really hurt the casinos is the general improvement of players regarding basic strategy. This is due to the proliferation of casinos across the country more than to anything that Thorpe wrote or card counters. People from Indiana, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Missouri who now who go to Las Vegas probably gamble almost as much as an average Las Vegas local. It would be impossible for their skills not to dramatically improve.

Obviously never been to Louisiana on a Saturday Night. LOL!

You are right, People's skills have improved slightly.

However, it is still a negative game.

Even the few people I have run across counting, they were overbetting or not betting correctly, or not making the correct strategy deviations, etc. Or playing bad rules, bad pen game.

Bottom line: they were not playing a positive EV game

Sure a straight BS player has a low house edge, but a straight pass line bettor at craps has a low house edge too, and I don't see any craps shooters getting backed off.

If the casino would relax, it would actually make more money at the BJ tables. Backing off a counter who is eventually going to go broke is a bad economic decision.

true, hardly anybody hits their 14 against a 6 anymore. If they do the rest of the table (or the dealer) will gasp and fill them in on the "truth".

But I still have never seen a proper B.S. player. Most players don't know to hit or double their S18 (or even their S17) or to split their 9's. And most players soft-double their A-2 vs. 2.
Many players do not hit their 12 v. 2 or 3.

Additionally, most players always take "even money" against an Ace but will never insure any other hand. they fail to realize that when they take "even money" it is the same as taking insurance. How much do you think the casinos make on all the "even money" plays?? I'm constantly looked at like an idiot when I fail to take "even money" but nobody (not even most dealers) realize it is the proper B.S. play.

I'm not talking about the new players who fail to hit their S14 against a 10 or don't know to double their 11 vs. a 6. I'm talking about the "everyday" player who generally knows B.S. but also hangs on to these myths on the proper way to handle certain plays.

In short, i have never run across an accurate B.S. player (even those who hit S18 v. 10 will still take even-money and probably would double their A,2 vs. 2).
However, most do play some sort of version that approximates B.S.

i suspect that the casino's hold is still pretty decent because of these frequent deviations from B.S.

There are numbers on these subjects. The average player actually gives the house about a 1.4 % edge these days in LV and a smidge less in Atlantic City. The AC result is because of the very uniform rules there compared to Las Vegas. It is slightly worse in the newer areas such as the Gulf Coast casinos.

Thank you for your interesting comment:

There are numbers on these subjects. The average player actually gives the house about a 1.4 % edge these days in LV and a smidge less in Atlantic City. The AC result is because of the very uniform rules there compared to Las Vegas. It is slightly worse in the newer areas such as the Gulf Coast casinos.

I was wondering what the source(s) for these figures was(were)?

Thanks In Advance

"I beg to differ...counting is still very rare, and effective counting is even more extremely rare. I go to Las Vegas and almost never see another advantage player."

My recent trip to Vegas towards the end of November indicated otherwise. During my 6 days trip, about 25 hours of playing BJ, I spotted a total of 3 AP. One is extremely good, wonging and 'White Rabbit', another one is well aware of his protection: he left as soon as the pit perched by the table (also my present at the table).

If I remember correctly, Peter Griffin concluded that the average player gave the house about a 2% edge in LV and slightly less in AC, which he attributed to better play by high rollers there. 1.4% is not too far off.

I am, of course, aware of Griffin's work on the subject.

But if understood the post above, it is suggesting that the play of the public has imporved since Griffin's study.

I was asking for this source for this.

that you probably new this, but I thought some readers (possibly even Jake?) might not. In hindsight, I should have responded to Jake's post, not yours.

Would a difference of 0.6% be significant, do you think?