Buy in for more than 10k?

If you buy more than 10k in chips at a table are they supposed to ask for your SS number. This happened to me at Foxwoods when I was down more than 10k. I didn't sleep the whole night so I was shot and gave it to them . What are you supposed to do in that situation?

Casinos are required, like other institutions and businesses, to report all cash transactions aggregating $10K or more within any 24 hour period. This is called a Cash Transaction Report or "CTR." Under this rule, for example, if you bought in for $5K and cashed out for $5K (i.e., broke even), you would still have aggregated $10K, and a CTR would be required.

There is also a "Suspicious Activity Report" (SAR) which reports any suspicious activity >= $5K. This is subjective. For example, cashing $7K in cheques at a top of the line strip club would probably not be considered "suspicious," but cashing the same amount at a place like the Copa in Gulfport might very well qualify.

In short, you really didn't have much choice but to supply your SSN. The good side of this is that the loss is recorded, thus can be charged againsts future wins.

"Casinos are required, like other institutions and businesses, to report all cash transactions aggregating $10K or more within any 24 hour period. This is called a Cash Transaction Report or "CTR." Under this rule, for example, if you bought in for $5K and cashed out for $5K (i.e., broke even), you would still have aggregated $10K, and a CTR would be required."

The CTR requirement is not during "any" 24 hour period, it is defined as a gaming day which is a 24 hour period set by each individual casino. The Gaming day usually starts/stops when the casino empties the table cash boxes at the start of a new shift/gaming day.

Buying in for 5K and then cashing 5K DOES NOT generate a CTR. A CTR is only generated if your aggregate buy in's exceed 10k OR aggregate cash out's exceed 10k (i.e. 10,000.01) during a gaming day, they do not combine the buy in and cash out to arrive at the total. The CTR does not mention whether you won or lost, it is only a record of the transaction occuring.

"In short, you really didn't have much choice but to supply your SSN. The good side of this is that the loss is recorded, thus can be charged againsts future wins."

He did have a choice, once he approached the 10k mark he could have not bought in again that gaming day. Before they gave him chips for his last buy in which put him over 10K the casino will ask for your SS info, if you refuse they will not allow you to buy in again during that gaming day.

If your last buy in went over the 10k limit and they gave you chips without having your SS number, but later discover you were over the limit, they will then ask you for your info. If you refuse to provide it, they will stop you from playing in that casino again until you provide the information necessary to file the CTR.

If you are a rated player, once you give them your info the first time, they won't ask for it again on future trips because they will have it on file with your player records. Then the next time you go over 10K either in buy in or cash out, they will file the CTR without you even knowing it.

BTW, once a casino has your SS number it's safe to say that Griffin and the Central Credit Bureau also have access to it.

Once again, a CTR does not specify whether you won or lost, it merely records the buy in or cash out for any amounts exceeding 10K (i.e. 10,000.01) therefore, a CTR is not a record that can be charged against future wins.

Hope this is helpful.

Card.

Thanks, that make more sense. So, for purpose of evading CTR, it would be a good idea to keep chips from session to session rather than cash out and then buy in again, right?
Second question, as a rated palyer all info on driver license is on casino computer, can they find out your ssn or can they file without ssn if they have all other information?

...but I'm not going to debate you here.

But remember, he had ALREADY had buy-ins aggregating more then $10K; so I stand by my "not much choice" statement. Note, "not much choice" is different from "not any choice."

Say you've bought in for $9500 and put another 1000 on the table, that triggers a CTR that you cannot negate by pulling the money back. However, if you've bought in for $9500 and put out two $500 money plays that does not trigger a CTR unless the bets lose.

I think Carcountr�s main point was that your statement

Under this rule, for example, if you bought in for $5K and cashed out for $5K (i.e., broke even), you would still have aggregated $10K, and a CTR would be required."

Is just flat-out wrong.

You don;lt have to debate this; here is a link to the actual IRS form:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/ffc103.pdf

There is a different form for Nevada casinos, but it is similar in this respect. Also, I think we are not discussing a Nevada casino.

In one shoe nothing happened. When I went upstairs to play bj the guy approached me when I was down over 10k. I cashed out 10k and 2 windows without a problem. When I tried to play again the guard asked me for id but she thought I was under age.

Thanks, that make more sense. So, for purpose of evading CTR, it would be a good idea to keep chips from session to session rather than cash out and then buy in again, right?

This discussion is not about evading a CTR, but rather about not triggering a CTR when it's not necessary. Here's an example: If you were to buy in at a table for 6K and play one hand of $100 and then win or lose go to the cage and cash out and then go back to the table later and rebuy again with cash for the same 6k during the same 24 hour gaming day, you've just triggered a CTR report because your cash buy in is now 12K, when in fact only 6K in cash came out of your pocket. Had you simply kept the chips and played with the initial 6k buy in, no report was needed.

Second question, as a rated palyer all info on driver license is on casino computer, can they find out your ssn or can they file without ssn if they have all other information?

Simply knowing your drivers license number isn't enough info for them to file a CTR because the CTR is tracked by the SS number which is why the Fed's require it. Now with the consolodation of casino ownership and common players cards within the group, if you gave your SS number to one casino within the group or applied for credit, then all others within that group would have access to it and would be able to file a CTR without you even knowing it.

CTR's are really no big deal and nothing to work a sweat over, unless you are involved in an illegal activity, some players on this board may have hundreds of them filed every year with no ill effects. But what does surprise me is how freely the public gives away their personal information which exposes them to identity theft and other privacy issues.

Not long ago on one of the Vegas shows, an independent host named Steve Cye was filmed in his living room sharing computer lists containing players names, addresses, social security numbers and banking information including bank balances, with a group of other hosts from other casinos. That type of personal information should be kept confidential by the casinos and is in violation of the law when it is disseminated in that fashion. And then we wonder why identity theft is becoming such a big national problem.

Your statements were simply wrong.

"Casinos are required, like other institutions and businesses, to report all cash transactions aggregating $10K or more within any 24 hour period. This is called a Cash Transaction Report or "CTR." Under this rule, for example, if you bought in for $5K and cashed out for $5K (i.e., broke even), you would still have aggregated $10K, and a CTR would be required".

Your above statement is absolutely WRONG and not debatable.
See the link Mathprof provided for the actual form.

"In short, you really didn't have much choice but to supply your SSN. The good side of this is that the loss is recorded, thus can be charged againsts future wins."

The filing of a CTR has nothing to do with whether the player won or lost, it simply notes the cash transaction occurring. The Casino would have a record of a rated players cummulative wins or losses associated with his players card, and can be requested at the end of each year.

The filing of a CTR has nothing to do with how much in chips you won, it has everything to do with how much you redeem for cash. You could win a million in chips and no report is filed until you go to the cage and cash out more than 10K in one gaming day.

In the same token, you could sit at a table and begin play with 100K in chips won from previous sessions and no CTR is filed, but the moment that you buy in for more than 10K in CASH during a gaming day, they will collect your SS number and file the report.

You said you were down 10k once, I imagine that you play $100 min and your bet is $1000-$2000 when the count is high.Through your exprience,on exremely unlucy situations, how much consecutive lose did you suffer? 40k,50k or 60k? Last week I lost 6 consecutive trips total of $12000 which is equal to 48k in your situation.(I play $25 min and bet $400-$500 (two hands with $200-$250 each hand).

So you probably know a lot more than me but when I lost 20k it was at the $200 table and it was in a few shoes maybe three or 4 playing heads up. The variance is bad playing one on one in a shoe game. Maybe somebody here can give you more info on variance.

It was horrible, I lost almost every hand in the last shoe. The dealer kept getting bj over and over. Here from cc.com

I saw a lot of small card come out and the dealer kept getting blackjack and the same patterns kept repeating which makes me think that the shuffle kept the cards the same that were stacked, clumped or short shoed. That night I was about even downstairs in Club Newport and was up a couple grand playing Bac. After I played bj for a while and was about even or up a little I went back to the Baccarat table and started betiing a thousand a hand. I asked the dealer about flat betting and she said if you are winning you should press so since I won like 10 in a row I started to bet 2 then 3k a hand. Finally I am up to 23k and pay my commission. I asked for a room and they said that they would try to get one for me even though my account was locked. I waited for about an hour just to hear Bufongu. The host said I could pay for a room but didn't even have the courtesty to get one reserved for me. Anyway Icash 10k twice on 2 sides of the casino and I go back to gamble a little more and the security guard asked me for id. Iam 27 and was up for 2 days with no sleep so I didn't feel like walking to my car. Anyway after tellingf her 3 times I needed a security guard she finally understood. I waited a few minutes and the guy finally came. It took me like a half hour to find my car and on my way back he tells me to get a room and put the money in a safe so that I don't lose it all. I go back to the security guard and she asks the security guard if he saw my id which was messed up because I told her before to ask inside because they know me and she said that she couldn't have someone vouch for me. I go back and play some roulette with no luck, I lost a few hundred. Then I played a little Bac and was about even maybe down a little. I go to the evevator to get my room and I see the button for the 25th floor. I never went there so I figured why not give it a try. At the only hundred dollar table I was down a lot then about even. I get up and go to the 200 dollar table knowing that something bad is going to happen but anyway the dealer kept puylling 20 and 21 and a lot of small cards came out but the dealer kept winning like I described before. Finally I am down to my last 6k and lose it in a few minutes. I feel violated because of the poor service at Foxwoods. I will go back there and win like 50k and never go back. F them.

A "statistic" is a mathematical statement about a group of numerical events. The events themselves, individually and collectively, are called data. The data will have an average value, called a "mean". The mean itself is also a statistic, as it is a mathematical statement about data.

Variance is a measure of fluctation about the mean, meaning how far from the mean the data have fallen. It is computed by subtracting the mean from each piece of data. Note that this difference is either positive or negative in algebraic sign. If we added these raw differences together they would sum to zero. So the differences are squared to remove all negative algebraic signs. The squared differences are then summed. This sum is divided by one less than the number of data items, or n-1. The reason for dividing by one less than the number of data items is because we have this number of pieces of information, that is, if we know the values thru the n^th-1 value, then we know the n^th value.

There is one more step. The variance itself will not strongly resemble the differences between the data items and their mean because it is constructed from the squares of that difference. To make the statistic more closely resemble the differences it measures, we take its square root, and call this square root the "standard deviation", often abbreviated sd.

Why is variance important? For two reasons:

1. Variance disguises expection. The games would not exist without it. If every better received exactly their expected outcome, then there would no thrill for the suckers (they would always be losing). If every better received exactly their expected outcome, then players holding advantage would be instantly revealed (they would always be winning) and they would be shown the door.

2. Variance demands that your bankroll be finely divided. Fluctuation is more than possible; it is inevitable. If the fraction of your bankroll devoted to each individual wager is too large, then you will inevitably lose your bankroll, in spite of holding a mathematically positive expectation on each and every wager you place. Read the previous sentence again. This phenomenon has a name: the Paradox of Gambler's Ruin. Can we determine what size each individual wager should be to prevent going broke? Can we determine what size each individual wager should be to make our bankroll grow and grow as fast possible? Yes. And the tools to do this require exactly those statistics I've described.

This and much more is available at http://www.bjmath.com/, a link to which is provided by this site, under More Links.

If you have further questions upon this subject, then you are thinking correctly, because if you want to succeed at making a gambling bankroll grow, you have chosen for yourself a most torturous path requiring great commitment. This is not a replacement for work. This is work of a most assiduous kind, devoid of shortcuts. There are many luminaries who posit upon these pages who can lend you guidance. If you feel compelled to persue this, subscribe to Green Chip.

I have two grown children. I've never encouraged either to gamble, much less to pursue gambling as a career. I don't recommend it to anyone.

Foxwood is the most horrible casino I have ever experienced. No casino want player to win,but Foxwood is least bearable. Your experience is normal to me, they just do their job-keep bothering you and giving trouble to you and push you to lose temper at last. A high roller like you in AC or Las Vegas will get suit not a standard room real quick without hesitation. I bet you are either Korean or Chinese, so next time go to Asian marketing find an Asian casino host and ask him or her to find room or food or beverage comp.

Thanks Igor.

I always use the odds of the game I'm playing as the "mean"(-1/2%).
I assume counters are playing to a different "mean" (whatever their advantage is).

Comps are good but now that I'm counting no more players cards for me.

I'm Korean, you sound like you just came here or are real close to home being that you live in Chinatown. You also sound like you know how to count but are new to this as well.

You scrap(palm or whatever), chips off your stack and get them in your napsack. Then you color up, showing a loss --- when you really are a big winner. The casino will think that you're a sucker and you are laugh all the way to the bank.