blackjack as extra income

i'm a newbie to this group. i have read many articles about counting as giving the player an edge (i'm probably sure this has been proven many times) can a basic strategy player win over time. I have tried the hi-lo system for a few trips, but i realized i become very fatigued even after 30minutes of play. i've done okay with basic strategy and did not quit my day job using my experience for some extra income. any input will be helpful.

i have been keeping tabs on my play for about 1 year, approximately 25-30 trips (2-4/mo) my wins have been about 70% of the time but i'm only positive a few thousand < 10. of the 30% losses, my entire bankroll was lost about 3 times appx 3-5K. I usually play DD, rarely 6D, and sometimes 6:5 SD (usually with black play).

my style these days is quick plays of 5min-1hr depending on fatigue. I then go to my room to rest and comeback down to play again. i like head to head sometimes with 2 hands and will switch to 1 or 2 hands to mix it up if bad hands are coming or simply leave.

i would like a steady game, but reading many different articles, there doesn't seem to be one best method, i think a lot of this game is mental and if your ahead by 20% of your starting or down by 30% would sometimes be a good time to get up or when you just can't concentrate.

i'll probably be ripped for these comments but anything to make my play better and gain an insight to add extra income.

There's really nothing to rip about your comments they appear completely honest and your asking good questions.

A couple of easy answers:
1. You don't stand a chance at 6:5, period. Stay away from this game like the plague! You'd be better off playing basic strategy at a decent 6 deck shoe.
2. In the long run you will not win money playing only basic strategy in today's casinos. Basic strategy minimizes the casino's edge, but they still have just enough edge to ensure they will win and you will loose if you play long enough.

Winning money at Blackjack is a grind. You have to put in a lot of hours and concentrate enough to keep mistakes as minimal as you are capable of. The time to get up is always when you can't concentrate! I think the real question you have to answer is are you willing to grind through the time and effort it takes to make money?

At this point you probably need to study a good book, like Wong's Professional Blackjack. It will help fill in some holes for you and give you a good idea of what it's going to take.

Good Luck and Welcome!

P.S. if your playing black with a 5k bankroll you will probably have a lot of problems staying in games (even when counting). Standard Deviation can be a B***h!

or you can take the Low Road. It is easier to make an "extra income" by playing online. Income as in steadily flowing towards you. Onland BJ is a "beach," and when the tide goes out, so does your money. The odds are much more in your favor online than they are onland, plus the variance is a cool summer breeze. Use your time wisely if you are trying to make money. Then playing onland will be a lot more fun for you when you have to play felt "in that old fashioned way."

Do you know of an online game that does not reshuffle after every hand, or that gives a + expectation with only basic strategy?

Please include the link and the rules.

I am sure he is targeting the various promotions to be found on the online casinos because anything else is nonsensical. I've abandoned the blood and guts play in the brick and mortar joints save for the MATCH PLAY COUPON offers. Single-deck home games are now my forte; Let the casinos be damned!

thanks for response, but I do have some more questions

1. when counting and playing H2H, and the count is +, wouldn't the count be positive for the dealer as well? this is concerning to me when the dealer is consistently pulling 9s 10s on their top card and i have to hit.

2. i don't quite understand why having a 5K bankroll is not enough, I can bring more, but are you saying i'll have that much of a losing streak to lose my money entirely, by the time i'm down 1k at a particular table, I would have left to another. I guess I don't understand what the unit bet is $25-100 or $5-10.

3. I understand the grind, I do it many times, but often times, I have doubled or tripled my buy-in within 2-3 shuffles (buy-in $300-500)and usually satisfied, the longer I play or is it the more greedier I become, I see this money down to what I started or on the losing trend. I think that is where basic strategy has its downside. but mentally, you also become angry and tired, and that is when the casino has its bigger advantage.

4. often times, i'm at a table with $25 and betting progressively, the pit boss is over to the corner of my eye either in front of me or at the far side watching my play, how do you AVOID that scenario if you grind and count. I don't range bets and that is part of the counting principle, but add to my bets occasionally, this already brings attention.

It would be a great pleasure to take home thousands without any heat so most of the time, I would be happy to make $200 or more a day (i'm understating, it's just and example) with expenses paid and come back another day.

any input would be appreciated

1. when counting and playing H2H, and the count is +, wouldn't the count be positive for the dealer as well? this is concerning to me when the dealer is consistently pulling 9s 10s on their top card and i have to hit.

Yes it is, but there is a difference in him and you .. you get paid 3:2 for your BJs (if you will stay away from the 6:5), he can not double, split or surrender. His big advantage is drawing last.

2. i don't quite understand why having a 5K bankroll is not enough, I can bring more, but are you saying i'll have that much of a losing streak to lose my money entirely, by the time i'm down 1k at a particular table, I would have left to another. I guess I don't understand what the unit bet is $25-100 or $5-10.

$5K is enough if you can replenish it as you seem to be able. It is just that if your max bet is set to high, a long negative run of hands -which happens -could wipe you out at any particular point in time. If you are trying to knock 'em dead .. big time .. you should bring more than $5K to support the level of play you seem to need.

3. I understand the grind, I do it many times, but often times, I have doubled or tripled my buy-in within 2-3 shuffles (buy-in $300-500)and usually satisfied, the longer I play or is it the more greedier I become, I see this money down to what I started or on the losing trend. I think that is where basic strategy has its downside. but mentally, you also become angry and tired, and that is when the casino has its bigger advantage.

Quit .. when you get angry or tired. Overall, it seems you haven't seen your money down on the losing side; aren't you up overall < $10K? Nobody said it was quick or easy to get and stay ahead.

4. often times, i'm at a table with $25 and betting progressively, the pit boss is over to the corner of my eye either in front of me or at the far side watching my play, how do you AVOID that scenario if you grind and count. I don't range bets and that is part of the counting principle, but add to my bets occasionally, this already brings attention.

Don't play for long stretches of time at one place (maybe an hour or so.) Study books on camo and make some plays that don't cost you much in EV. Shoot, call the guy over and ask HIM what to do, etc, etc, etc.

> It would be a great pleasure to take home thousands without any heat so most of the time, I would be happy to make $200 or more a day (i'm understating, it's just and example) with expenses paid and come back another day.

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

Last, you say you have tried this 'counting' thing a few times.

Here's the thing. You are basically a basic strategy player that has stuck his toe in this 'counting thing' to see if you like it. Be glad you are still up overall.

With all due respect, you need to work on and perfect that skill as much as you perfect anything else important to you.

Do you only play good games; are you getting decent pen? Can you count in your sleep? Can you see a pair or three card hand and know the total without thinking? Can you do it while being distracted.

You don't range your bets when the count calls for it? Why not? How can you expect to win if you don't.

It's learning how to play and then being disciplined in how you apply what you learned.

You'll get out of this 'counting thing' exactly the effort you put in it.

Good Luck.

1. You also have the advantage of changing your play based upon the count which the dealer does not - he must play to the house rules. If you are in a positive count you can stand on 15 or 16 as well as take insurance.

2. A couple of additional things here
Changing tables does NOT help preserve bankroll if you are not counting. We often refer to Wonging - entering or leaving a table, but this is entirely based upon a positive or negative count. Without counting you don't know if your leaving a positive table for a negative or vice versa - you have to know!

Most pros recomend a bankroll 100-200x your max bet (some even say your average bet). If your betting $100 you need a bankroll of 100K. The reason is Standard Deviation. For example (from Pro Blackjack) Playing basic strategy and flat betting $26.54 (don't worry about the strange amount) you can expect a win rate of -$15, but std deviation of $301! This is how you happen to be ahead right now. You should read up on Optimal Betting/Kelly Criteria/Risk of Ruin (all related) to understand this.

3. Because you are playing at a disadvantage the casino will win if you play long enough, assuming you win to start with - which doesn't always happen. Even when playing at an advantage you can have long loosing streaks (Standard Deviation) - this will really wear on your nerves! I once had a count so high and lost so bad I thought the casino had to be cheating and walked out. Looking back now, I don't think they were, I just wasn't prepared for what can really happen.

This is not a rip, but don't consider yourself to have "tried" counting (actually this is where some people differentiate between counting and Advantage Play). You questions appear to present a need for additional knowledge before you could say you've actually played with an advantage. Item 4 alone has entire books dedicated to it, and it will take more information than could be posted here to give you a complete understanding of 1-3. If you're serious about this, make the investment of time to pick up and study some of the serious writings. The best way to use this site is to read about a subject and then let people fill in holes (as opposed to trying to gain an understanding from posts alone). It will cost you a lot less then trial and error at the tables.

i'll look into the books and study them, and if there are any questions i'll bring them back to the board.

now i know there are a lot of different methods and styles probably the same with books but can someone give me other titles besides stanford wong's book.

thanks

That more of the "heavy hitters" didn't participate with this thread.

Anyway, John May's book Getting the Edge at Blackjack covers a ton of stuff in a small amount of space. I'd recomend it as helpful to getting started on this board. It'll cram your head with a lot of very general information which can be sorted out over time. John also participates on this board.

Wong's Pro Blackjack is pretty much the bible for HiLo. If it had been the first book I read I would have been in trouble and I guess this is the reason you're asking for other books. My first book was Revere's BJ as a Bus. I feel it's really outdated but it worked for getting my feet wet and a little better prepared for Stanford.

BJ Attack; BJ for Blood; and Knock Out BJ are all good. If you do a search you can find some reviews from members.

I've really gained a lot of understanding through Pro BJ by reading posts on this site then trying to find the "answers" in the book. This has really helped put some key factors into context and expand my understanding and application.

The other advantage has been joining Greenchip. There's more focused discussions by experts (even if they do tend to fight over grains of sand) :)

FYI - just to clarify one thing. I'm in no way saying "go away and read then come back" or anything similar (re-reading my own posts gave me that impression). I probably should have said something along the line of the question is too general to easily answer. The general nature of the questions led me to assume you need more foundation, however, this may or may not be correct.

Good Luck!
T

aren't posting much if at all. If you are heavy hitting, what do you need with a bj message board ?