Beginner - KO vs Hi-Lo system?

I am just starting out with card counting and I am using the K-O system. I know perfect blackjack strategy and have played blackjack for years without counting for entertainment. It has become a very expensive hobby so I figured I would try counting. I practiced a while at home and hit the local casino for the first time this weekend. I hit the casino for the first time this weekend and put in a total of 12 hours and won $1500.

I was playing at a 6 deck $15 minimum table and ramped up to 7 units when count was over 10 (I rounded down to $100 since $105 seemed like a strange number. I was generally using the running count like the beginner K-O system suggests. There were a few shoes where the running count was getting up around 30 when there was roughly 2 shoes left (one shoe to play and 1 shoe penetration). I actually ramped up to $200 a hand in those instances with mixed results. One shoe I got slaughtered, with the dealer pulling a 20 or blakckjack for the last 4 hands of the shoe while the count remained above 20. The other shoe I did a bit better winning 3 of the last 4 hands with the count remaining up above 20.

My question is this, since the K-O system is not a balanced count system could the high count just have been the 7's in the shoe. In other words, since the K-O system assigns a +1 value to sevens and there are 4 sevens per deck and 6 decks, if all the sevens are dealt from the shoe, you would have a +28 count. Is that really a true advantage seeing as the ratio of 2 through 6 cards to 10 through Ace cards are still the same. I wonder if a high-low count would be better in general?

I like the K-O system for beginners cause I don't have to worry about dividing the running count by the the number of shoes left and just simply move up to 3 units at a pivot point of running count of +4 and generally max out at 7 units when the running is above +10.

Has anyone made any real money long-term using the K-O system with the running count? I wonder if my win this weekend was just a fluke or if K-O system with the simple running count really is effective to use long term.

I appreciate any feedback anyone would be willing to give cause I am new to card counting and it really did seem like the count was working for the most part, but not sure if I was just experiencing the typical hot and cold streaks of BJ and I just got lucky with some well timed big bets.

-Novice card counter

High Low is the industry standard. That said, KO gets the money quite well, i'd suggest picking up the companion book "The Color of Blackjack" which will enhance KO significantly should you decide to use it. In some games KO actually outperforms High-Low. The only tricky part about KO is understanding how to Wong out during negative shoes because your table exit is a constantly moving target.

you can use the hi-lo system without making true count conversion. I never make the conversion. I use a simpler concept. I keep the running count and my target for max bet is about +20 running count with 4 decks left, + 15 with 3 decks left, + 10 with 2 decks left, and + 5 with 1 deck left. Just approximate for other counts and other decks remaining in some general proportion.

The key to winning at 6 deck is get out on the negative counts- switch tables, use your phone, go the bathroom- anything to avoid placing bet after bet when you are at a disadvantage. And when you are at negative count, bet low.

If you can avoid playing nearly all negative counts, and vary your bet in some general proportion to the approximate true count, you should do ok over the long term. You do not need to be overly precise.

Thank you for your post. Although a little confusing, I think we get the your questions. There are no shoes remaining, only decks remaining in the shoe. Seems your off to a good start.

I do have a couple comments; Please don't get over confident, you will still have many bad sessions. Key is to win more than lose over the long term. Even as an AP, you will have times that are brutal. As I stated, you have to look at it long term. Very important to keep detailed records of all your play. I can win 10 sessions in a row and lose 10 sessions in a row. Make sure your player Bank Roll is able to handle this. Play with your head and never over it.

You said you played 12 hours. Thats a ticket out the door if you played that long in one session, especialy if your using a 1/10 spread. That spread an automatic flag to the pit. The spread is fine, it's the 12 hours that concerns me. Better to keep sessions short before they have the chance to notice. Luck isn't part of the game anymore. That can change in a heartbeat. Any AP worth their weight in salt knows that.

I have played 12 hour or longer sessions in the past. I don't do it anymore because of the reasons I've stated above. And when I've done that, most of the time I was just chasing the rabbit, trying to get my money back or intent on playing till I make a profit. And yes it has more often than not has worked. Yet it can cost much more than it is worth in the long run. Gives the pit way too much time to observe my play. Which is the last thing any AP wants.

I use Hi-lo although KO can bring the money just as well. A balaced count in my eyes is easier. Less room for costly mistakes.

Good Cards and congrats on your win. LWC.

a lot of places will not notice a counter or care with a $100 max bet and with most of your bets $10/15 and moving tables. Especially at 6 deck. I can list 10-20 off the top of my head.

Agree there is no point in a 12-hour session if there other decent places to pay within a half hour or so. Not only reducing your exposure at one, but once you get into the bigger bet range, you can generate come good comps and cash back. play 4 hours at casino x and take a $4000 loss and play 4 hours at casino b and win $4000, you are likely to generate better compos and offers than 8 hours at casino x with a net zero.

Be realistic about your win rate with a $10-100 spread at 6 deck. It is not that high. Enjoy playing, have a small win rate over the long haul, generate some comps.

12 hours at a 1/10 spread after a few hours if your lucky enough to last that long is a big mistake. Sure, you can play 1/10 spread for 20 hours if your not an AP. Definitly not wise at my two local stores.
I have a friend, part time team partner, who was backed off at a new store only open a few weeks after two hours at a 1/8 spread.
Just look at the glosary on this free page. ( Further Study ) When to End a Session.. Ian Andersen explains it well. And it sure has'nt gotten any easier since his days. I hope BigPlayer is reading all of this. He related to this a few months ago right here on this site.

Even at a 1/6 spread, I get nervous after a few hours at a !/6 spread if I'm cleaning thier clock. And thats at a 10$ table.

Concerning Comps; There are a whole lot of other ways to earn them besides long hours of play with out all that exposure. Just 4 hours in one day at more than one session gets me all I need. Example:

AC trip report, last month. As most stores I frequent, I get mailers for 2 night free room, gifts etc. And I am by no means a high roller. I play red or green. I played a 1/6 spread, short sessions for about 4 to 6 hours per day. Casinos love losers concerning comps. They also hate winners. Both can get the comps. I came home with 12 hundred more than I started with. Also free mini suite for 4 days. Fri thru Monday nights. So 2 nights became 4 with a mini suite instead of a regular room at check in. It had been 6 mths since last visit to this store playing the same way.Before I forget, that included all food and 2 free shows. If you add comps to your EV, I think I did OK as more often than not. At least in my EV expectation.

A little Comp advice; as I do it. When I take advantage of free room offer. I make sure to show up at least 6 hours before check in time and go to the check in right away. Most of the time they will let you check in early. That does'nt mean I'l take any room available. I just ask if they have a room available with a sofa or mini sofa with a nice view. Being I'm checking in 6 hours or more early, they often don't have exactly what I want. I just tell them, no thank you and that I'm willing to wait or I'l check in later. So even if I just walk away, when I check back latter they already know what I want. And that works 90% of the time without extra cost.

Being I'm in AC with more stores close by, I usualy plan to stay more than 2 nights. 4 to 5 nights after a long trip is what I'm looking for as long as my trip BR is still alive. And I refuse to pay any more than tax for my hotel room. Last trip to AC was 6 nights at 2 stores tax only. It's really easier to do if you play your cards right concerning this issue. Never call or go to front desk asking for extra room nights. Always do that thru the BJ pit personel. As long as you know how to make it look like after 4 hours of play 'does not mean 4 hours strait, just 4 hours recorded play that day". That is if you understand how to rathole correctly. It is easy to make the store think you lost 2K when you realy won 500$. For me it's like stealing candy from a baby. I'l explain.

As I stated above, Casinos love losers and hate winners enough to want them to stay around. So if your a loser they want you to lose more, So they offer you another night so you can donate some more. Or if your a winner they offer you another night so you will give it back to them. Or so they think. Thats why the word rathole can be very helpful in more ways than just one. God gave me pants with 2 pockets. 1 for chips and 1 for cash. As I slowly put chips in my left pocket, after a while and several dealers; I notice I have few chips on the table. Being they are all in my pocket. So with little chips on the table; I am no longer able to make my max bet when the time comes. I got 1K in chips in my left pocket and 500$ cash in my right pocket. Being I need more chips to keep playing, I reach in my right pocket and hand them cash for more chips. By now they don't have a clue whats in my left pocket. Cut to the chase: They think everything in my left pocket I lost and I;m buying in for another 2 hundred which they figure I'l lose also. Then ask for a food comp and 20 minutes latter ask for another free night in your free mini suite or suite that was supposed to be just a regular room to begin with. More than likely you will be pleasantly surprized. Thats all folks.

Happy Comps & Good Cards, LWC.

" Just look at the glosary on this free page. ( Further Study ) When to End a Session.. Ian Andersen explains it well. And it sure has'nt gotten any easier since his days."

All due respect LWC, Ian Andersen, was not referring to nickel bettors that are already betting equal to or even lower than the table average.

"Even at a 1/6 spread, I get nervous after a few hours at a !/6 spread if I'm cleaning thier clock. And thats at a 10$ table."

At these times the pit crew must be perspiring like hell.

"It is easy to make the store think you lost 2K when you realy won 500$. For me it's like stealing candy from a baby."

That is anything from being easy, and is NOT like stealing candy from a baby. Where do you come up with this shit. First of all it is very risky. Why, because they only need to catch you once, and subsequently, you will be charged with any shortages in the rack, regardless if you have them chips or not.

"Thats why the word rathole can be very helpful in more ways than just one. God gave me pants with 2 pockets. 1 for chips and 1 for cash. As I slowly put chips in my left pocket, after a while and several dealers; I notice I have few chips on the table. Being they are all in my pocket. So with little chips on the table; I am no longer able to make my max bet when the time comes. I got 1K in chips in my left pocket and 500$ cash in my right pocket. Being I need more chips to keep playing, I reach in my right pocket and hand them cash for more chips. By now they don't have a clue whats in my left pocket. Cut to the chase: They think everything in my left pocket I lost and I;m buying in for another 2 hundred which they figure I'l lose also."

LWC, you are very naive.

Surveillance can easily pick off ratholers. Just like wongers.

" It is easy to make the store think you lost 2K when you realy won 500$. For me it's like stealing candy from a baby."

If crowd conditions at the tables are crowded but not to the point of not being able to find seats you can occasionally table hop and rat hole $100/$150 in green. Provided there is green being bet all over the table, and that players are coming and going. However, over the course of a few hours and 5 tables in the pit are showing short racks of $400, and one $500 Someone is going to NOTICE it, and have a revue of just what was going on. Do not also forget, that many dealers keep a close eye on where the chips are, and ask for them back on a color up, or if you just get up and walk away, will relate info to the pit crew, and if you did not tip you can almost be assured they will say something negative to the pit.

I wrote that I had 1k in chips in my left pocket. I shouldn"t have explaied in that way. Because the 1K isn"t actually in myleft pocket. Terrible way of explaining it. The 1K isn"t in my pocket at one time. It usually happens over a period of 4 hrs playing on and off. Leaving about 200$ at a time in my room, etc between sessions in a day. I was trying to state that as a metaphore. Poorly stated, I do admit. Didn:t notice how it could be very misleading the way I stated it.
My apology to all on that.

Good Cards, LWC

last paragraph. In the other reference regarding $5 blackjack I said nickel bettors as in all red chip play, which I believe is the right lingo. I made no mention of $5 blackjack.

ps: I am glad the game is going good for you. I am sorry for the rudeness on my part.