Barred at the Eldorado in Reno

While on a trip to Reno this past weekend I was walking back to my hotel when I decided to stop in the Eldorado for one last session since I had some time to kill before meeting the rest of my party. I bought in for the huge whopping amount of $45 (like I said, I was killing a little time and realize this is a very small buy-in). I play the Hi-Opt I system. With my very minimum buy-in, I obviously was only playing $5 for the most part. Over the course of about 30 minutes, I placed 1 $25 bet (which I lost), 2 $20 bets (which I lost) and a handful of $10 bets with some of those being off the top. I had fluctuated between a high of $90 in front of me and and sunk down to $20. There were 2 others at the table. One guy was betting a flat $15 while the other was varying his bets between about $10 and $40. After about 30 minutes a young oriental pit supervisor tapped me on the shoulder and asked if she could speak with me. I got up from the table and stepped away about 10 feet when she told me that I was no longer allowed to play blackjack at either the Eldorado and the Silver Legacy, but was allowed to play craps, roullette, etc. I then asked, "Can I ask why this is so?" She said, "It's private property. The same goes at the Silver Legacy." I then asked, "Did I do something wrong?" She then repeated the same, "It's private property. That's all I can say." I then turned around, grabbed my chips, and left. They must be extremely paranoid to bar someone after 30 minutes with a $45 buy-in betting basically nickels!. Has anyone else heard of any experiences at this place?

does that mean you had other El Dorado sessions that weekend. If so, that would explain it--they had info from your earlier sessions, not just this one. If not, I'm at a loss too.

I had one other session of about 45 minutes on another shift. Other than some cover bets and a couple of odd plays, I employed some cover by chatting it up with the dealer asking about Tahoe, which I hadn't yet been to see. She went on to describe it, and I acted curious and asked questions and how to get there, etc. She then called over her supervisor for directions. I asked him how to get their, and he told me. The deal was even held up briefly. I continued on for a while longer and walked out with about a $75 win. I experienced absolutely no heat in this session or the subsequent session where I was given the boot.

Another interesting note is that this place has some kind of device that reads your bet with a camera at the table. The dealer punches in who is seated at which position on the table. For example, I noticed that when one person switched positions, the dealer had to punch in that someone move from 4th position to 3rd base. Any time someone enters or leaves the table is also punched in. The dealer also puts her two cards in some slot that not only determines the normal 10/A, but must also read the up card. The dealer also puts the discards in a hopper and cannot proceed dealing until the light turns green. I asked if the light determines when she should deal and she said no. Their is also a card swiper at the table where they swipe player cards. The dealer said the whole contraption is for tracking player card action, but I think it is also used to detect counters. Anyone had any experience with this machine?

From what you have described, obviously they have automatically inputed every player's bet and card counts. So with a computer, they can easily identify that you are an advantage player! Of course they will back you off before you increase your bet to green or black.

This kind of machine is scary.

The dealer said the whole contraption is for tracking player card action, but I think it is also used to detect counters. Anyone had any experience with this machine?

The dealer either lied, was ignorant, or at least didn't tell the whole story of the Mindplay cheating table.

There is a complaint pending in Nevada against the use of this casino cheating device, which uses marked cards.

The cheating device is used at Eldorado, Crystal Bay, and Las Vegas Hilton.

Eldorado is a partner in the development of it. Mindplay's sales office is housed in the Eldorado, which is one of Reno's most notorious sweatshops, even for very low-stakes players.

Can you explain how casinos cheat with Mindplay?

They can use the machine to perform preferrential shuffling, which some players consider to be cheating. This argument is enhanced by they fact they are using marked cards and a device, both in violation of the gaming laws.

With the electronic cards and table they can keep the perfect count.
The count gets too high, they shuffle up -when ever they choose.

So how does it hurt the counter? It dosen't. He finally gets sick of it and leaves.

So who gets hurt? The Basic Strategy player or Ploppy just hoping to have a good time. The counter leaves but the others stay. The BS player is thinking he is getting a virtually breakeven game when in reality he is never allowed to play when the count is falling. The count runs up; they shuffle up. Now he is playing a negative expectation game all the time.

They might as well be dealing seconds. It would be no different.

This computing device used by the cheating casinos in question uses marked cards so it knows the exact order in which the cards will be dealt. This device will have the dealer deal another round if the dealer is slated to get a BJ or a pat hand against a player stiff, even if the count is high. In other words, if the cards are in an order to deal the dealer two face cards and the player a face and a six, then the dealer will deal another round.

This is a more effective cheating device than uses dealers who deal seconds, IMHO. The next logical step for these thugs is to just steal customers money and possessions from hotel rooms. After all, NV authorities do not seem to care in the least that the casinos are committing theft.

I have slightly different opinion regarding preferrential shuffling at MindPlay tables (which btw should be the least of your worries). The machine, the way I understand it, does NOT tell the dealer when to shuffle. It's a so-called "client-server" system: All data collected at the tables are analyzed remotely by somebody else (probably, real time). If your bet is *highly* correlated with count, you'll be spotted as a counter within 10 or 15 mins. There is *abosolutely* no way you can fool them as long as you count and vary your bets proportionately. Chatting with the dealer or kissing the pit boss's *ss would NOT help.

(BTW, one "benefit" of MindPlay is that the dealers can NOT second deal unless the house "allows" it...)

I have been wondering about this MindPlay for some time. Has anybody thought about how much bet spead we can get away with (and how long) without being detected by this machines?

Until we know the answer, the best policy is just stay away from MPs or just flat bet and donate your money.

~Black Jack in the Box.

If the El Dorado and others are using this machine that has dubious uses at best, shouldn't the word be put out that these machines exist and are to be avoided? I was kind of suspicious of this machine while I was playing, but now I will never play at a place that has this beast.

Buddy, you are wrong.

Counters are badly hurt. Think about this worse-case scenario: Every casino in the world is equipped with MP. Then if you are a counter, you can't survive. Even the cover plays won't work. If I were the surveillance guy, I would program it in such a way that it only cares whether the jump of your bets correlate with high counts. If so, you are caught.

So we must fight together to eliminate MPs from the casinos. Since players are not allowed to use electronic devices, neither should the casinos. IMO, the most they can use is the card reader for dealer's blackjack.

Anybody disagrees with me?

Pref shuffling / cheating IS the least of my worries, since I don't play these machines at all. I may be mistaken about how these DEVICES work. I will agree with you that ONE purpose of using these DEVICES is to identify card counters. A second purpose of the DEVICES is to identify comp hustlers (and properly credit the meek whale who is not getting the comps he/she deserves).

The third purpose of these DEVICES is maxing casino win, IMHO. These DEVICES do tell the dealer when to shuffle, and the shuffle point does vary, based on my personal observation. If the shuffle point was irrespective of the remaining cards to be dealt, then a COMPUTER DEVICE such as this should be pretty darn consistent. Since, it varies, I tend to get a bit suspicious. I guess we could give the casino the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are shuffling away decks that disadvantage the player, but I think that is a pretty unrealistic view.

Like I said, these DEVICES don't directly impact me since I don't play. They are a COMPUTERIZED DEVICE that is used by a player in a game of chance (the casino) to cheat unsuspecting ploppies who naively believe that organized crime stopped running Nevada in the 50's.

BTW, aren't computerized devices illegal in Nevada? I guess it is an example of the golden rule in practice.

Coug, you seem very knowledgeable about MPs (especially for someone who don't play at MP tables), and I am NOT disputing that. When casinos are in business to make money and invest (possibly) big bucks on MPs, they will probably want to increase their bottom lines. And, I strongly suspect that they can (and will) squeeze out more money from unsuspecting BJ players in many different ways. But, I don't care. I dont' care whether my plays are "accurately" rated for comps, or whether each table is correctly recorded for accounting purposes. The issue here was:
> Whether they can or will "cheat" using preferential shuffling?
My *personal* opinion on this question was:
[1] If you are a card counter, this will the least of your worries. If they decide that you're a counter (and I can assure you that they will know that sooner than you think), then you are out.
[2] If they decide to shuffle before any good hands (like BJ), then this will hurt you whether you count or not. There is no question it's possible to do this on MP tables and I think it'll be very easy to add this funtionality to the currently deployed tables. But, as I said earlier, I don't think this is being done at the moment. And, even though I'm not a lawyer, this kind of preferential shuffling will be illegal, just like second dealing (which is btw *much* easier to do using MP).

Now, regarding your statement that you dont' play at MP tables, I don't know why you took my answer so personally but all I can say is "good for you". No counter, actually nobody, should play in casinos using MPs. Having said that, the issue is not really avoiding rotten casinos right now. MP has a BIG potential to spread to other casinos in the near future, in my view, and unless we come up with some type of "answer" to MP, we, card counters will be an "endangered species" before we know it.

Just my opinion,
~Black Jack.

I guess I was bagging more on preferential shuffling in general.

Certainly if they all went to Mind Play tables -it would be game, set, match.

Have you been to LV Hilton lately...It's a virtual ghosttown.

BJITB: No counter, actually nobody, should play in casinos using MPs. Having said that, the issue is not really avoiding rotten casinos right now. MP has a BIG potential to spread to other casinos in the near future, in my view, and unless we come up with some type of "answer" to MP, we, card counters will be an "endangered species" before we know it. Just my opinion.

There is another group that is hurt in the MP nexus between casinos and AP's, and that's pit critters. Now believe me, I wouldn't mind them becoming endangered species through natural accord, but in this case, they may actually become an unwitting ally, as their jobs will dwindle if MP becomes successful.

My take, is that these pit critters are already doing whatever they can to thwart their success. I have no empirical evidence of this. Only my common sense. Also, thanks to the efforts of many, e.g.; Al Rogers and LVBear, this topic is getting some play in the public domain.

I've been thinking about this for some time now, and it seems to me [please no political diatribes here] that this is exactly the kind of issue that a guy like Bill O'Reilly of Fox News might take on as a challenge. My sense is that many here would find that distasteful, but it's not the first time that issues like these have had strange bedfellows.

I can see the tag line now....CHEATING CASINOS CHEAT GAMBLERS!
Then the now ubiquitious underscroll.....Nevada state government approves computer devices to cheat gamblers violating their own laws against the use of computer devices in a gaming environment.

Whadda think? :)

cheers
bfb

does anyone know the definitive method of marking cards that is used for these mindplay machines. You may remember the old red dye and red sunglasses bit to watch certain cards. Someone ought to pick up a deck of cards from the gift shop and see if they still contain the marks. I imagine it is some kind of digital mark such as digital postage or UPS postage sans the bullseye. If they use the digital mark, it might be possible to fix up a pair of sunglasses that would be blacked out in precise areas to cause the digital mark to be a complete black square. You could probably get the patterns completely blacked out for the tens, aces, and 5.

I wonder what the legal issues would look like if you were caught with a pair of these sunglasses, but it was the casino who marked the cards. I imagine you would get caught doubling down on 16 when the mark for the next card shows a 5 coming. lol

should be eliminated if you take it to the extreme definition. I mean the electronic ones that read the down card and use a light to indicate the blackjack. The mirrored ones are OK I suppose.

If you want to fight using the law you can't leave the door open even a crack.

Hip Hop

Counters are badly hurt. Think about this worse-case scenario: Every casino in the world is equipped with MP. Then if you are a counter, you can't survive. Even the cover plays won't work. If I were the surveillance guy, I would program it in such a way that it only cares whether the jump of your bets correlate with high counts. If so, you are caught.

This is true, but a human can do this also. It is a trivial statistical analysis problem. A sample of a hundred hands or so is enough to determine whether a player is a card counter or advantage player with a reasonable degree of confidence. Cover plays will not fool either a human or a computer attempting to discriminate between classes of gambler.

In practice I believe a human is more effective, because a human can incorporate methods into his analysis based on Kinesics, or what gamblers sometimes call "tells". I doubt a cost effectiveness analysis is going to make the computer preferable to the human. You can pay a surveillance man very little in Las Vegas.

A final point: someone has to read the Mindplay data and understand it. They still have to make a judgement based on that data. Say you have a whale whom Mindplay tells you is a card counter, with a 99% probability. But there is a problem: only 1 in a 100 players is a comptent card counter. So you have a good chance of excluding a good customer who will lose millions at the tables-the problem being they will now be someone else's tables. Few casino employees know how to make correct decisions based on such data.